Are there any Gnostic Atheist out there besides me?
In case you're asking WTF is that, I'll explain.
Agnostics believe there's no way to prove or disprove the existence of a God of some kind. Atheist is simply anyone that doesn't believe in a God of any kind.
I do not believe in a God of any kind so I am atheist, there's just no evidence to support belief in a God.
The Gnostic part works like this for me:
If there's an undetectable God out there then the only way I as an individual will ever know anything about this God is if this God provides a direct revelation. Sort of like Paul but could be by any type of phenomena.
While I do not believe such revelation EVER happens, but if a God exist then this would be the sole mechanism that such a God would reveal itself. So preaching, teaching, epistemology, and philosophy are all useless in the study of God.
Should a person think such a revelation has been made in their life, even if it that person were myself, a psychologists should be consulted because there's a 99.997% chance you've fooled yourself.
Just a little extra reason for me to ignore every single thing shared by random people trying to shape my opinion on things not even they know thing one about.
I am certain that God does not exist form all my understanding and experience.m I am athiset.
If God is unknowable, I can not claim to "know" What I by definition can not know. I am agnostic.
There are agnostics such as myself who deny the existence of God simply because there is no evidence yet to prove or disprove such an entity. That does not mean there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of God. We just do not have the science to answer that question yet. Perhaps you should read about T.H.Huxley who is considered to be the modern founder of Agnosticism.
In response to your question about finding another person or group that thinks like you, try this. Read your post above and replace all instances of the word revelation with the word evidence. After you do this you may realize you are an agnostic allowing a small chance for future evidence to conclusively answer the question of God. Because an Atheist believes there is zero chance that gods exist despite the fact there is no evidence to support this line of thought.
Well, as an agnostic (and a scientist), I first acknowledge there are many things I don't know. Then I embrace Carl Sagan's wisdom; Incredible claims require incredible evidence. Is there a god? Beats me! I suspect that if we could truly know all truths about the universe, we would all be shocked at how different it is from what we believe. So...boiling it all down... Show me the money!
I am also a gnostic atheist. The problem is that it is an unfalsifiable position. We could make up anything we want and say it exists, and immediately it is an unfalsifiable claim. So, as gnostic atheists we actually cannot definitively prove there are no god/s, pixies, dragons, unicorns or etc. However, not being able to disprove does not give any ounce to proof.
I would simply pose a question as the form of an answer... "did god/s create us, or did we create many gods?" We know the latter is true, everyone in every belief recognizes that. However, we cannot disprove the former. But do we really need to?
@TheMiddleWay. We do know we created many gods. Most Christians don't believe in Zeus or Odin. I think it's safe to say that everyone rejects at least a few gods. So, it is a fair statement that everyone probably thinks that most gods are fictitious. I can make one up right now, and i doubt many people would believe me, but it still couldn't be falsified. I'm using circumstantial evidence. Everyone rejects some unfalsifiable gods and therefore we can all recognize examples of man made gods, but we have no evidence of a God that wasn't man made.
@Ringo6 Well, I covered my argument above with my analysis of "did god/s create us, or did we create many god/s." Second, agnostic is just a claim of not knowing, it is not a claim of belief. Theist = belief in god/s. If your answer to whether or not you believe there are god/s is anything but "Yes," you are an atheist. As I explained above it is a binary question, you either are or you are not..."A" is "A" and "A" is not "not A."
I don’t believe any gnostics exist, unless they worship themselves.
Oh! Let us never, never doubt
What NOBODY is sure about!
(THE MICROBE by: Hilaire Belloc (1870-1953))
Agnosticism, taken as an absence of belief, whether from lack of evidence, temperament, or whatever, has always seemed to me to be more rigorous that poor strident atheism. The atheist denies the existence of a god even when introduced to one, while the agnostic will at least try to determine why the poor creature thinks it should be considered to be a god, and how its being a god should influence our behaviour towards it. Judaeo-Christian theology has lumbered us with God as Creator, but in most pantheons I have heard of most of the gods are not creators, but patrons of some sort, absolving most of them from a horrid responsibility.
Agnostic protocols:
The correct form on being introduced to a god is:
a) falling to your knees and babbling whatever you can remember of childhood religion,
b) complaining about the state of the world (the "argument with design" ) or,
c) uttering a simple "So?" or "And...?".
The chosen definition of god will determine what it is for which the agnostic lacks evidence.
Atheist protocols:
The correct form on being introduced to a god is:
a) falling to your knees and babbling whatever you can remember of childhood religion,
b) complaining about the state of the world - the "argument with design" - or,
c) sticking fingers in each ear and singing "La,la, la" very loudly until the inconvenient entity withdraws, smites, begets, forgives or does whatever a god is supposed to do.
P.S. Is there anyway of preventing this program inserting idiot emoticons whenever parentheses are employed?
"I see no evidence" implies that one knows all there is and that since one sees no evidence, there is none. What was it Shakespeare said? "There are more things in heaven and earth than exist in your philosophy." You know the quote. Whatever super intelligence there may be who designed this whole infinity...it makes sense that he/she/it doesn't give a fig whether we "believe" in or acknowledge. What is - is. However, it does make perfect sense that whatever designer there is might just want us to appreciate what is provided for us - this Earth, the air, the water, our bodies - and might just want us to respect all life around us that shares the same right to exist. One thing I do believe in, is the principle of "cause and effect," in that we either pay for our actions or reap the rewards of our actions. It's a magnificent system that works. Some of us have had "signs." Those "signs" are only meant for the one who receives these "signs." It doesn't matter if the next fellow believes it or not. That is very unimportant. Humility and Gratitude go a long way. It's a good way to create a basis for life and for thinking.
@Mortal I'm so lucky because I never equated God with Jesus. No disrespect intended.
@TheMiddleWay Thank you so much for your reply. I am not a scientist and I immediately make a quick look-see for Higg's Boson. The phrase "I do not know," for me, is so powerful and so right. First, to live in it's acceptance is so comfortable for true seekers. Second it opens one up to fill the void and learn and therefore, paves the way for greater knowledge and understanding. Besides, it is honest. I think one needs a proper degree of humility and gratitude to accept "I don't know." When coupled with high intelligence...look out!
I can't agree with this. "Agnostics believe there's no way to prove or disprove the existence of a God of some kind"
It hasn't been proven, so no need to consider the claim.
I never thought of Agnosticism meaning that there is no way to prove there is a god or not a god, although when I google, I do see that listed in some definitions. I may use the term incorrectly, but to me I apply it personally - in that I cannot prove or disprove there is a god or goddess. Some people believe in god because they think they should. Others believe because they feel as though they have had just the sort of experience you speak of - direct revelation. I have not had that experience but in my view, I am in no position to invalidate the experiences of others. Therefore - agnostic "personally"
This makes sense to me, I like your addition of cannot personally......
I am not sure that epistemology and philosophy are entirely useless, just indeterminate. In fact, you have just given your epistemological basis for determining the existence of God. Philosophy can help one examine and clarify your own and others assumptions, just as you have apparently done.
I see no evidence for the existence of any god or gods.......The End
So it's not a question of belief, there's nothing there to believe in, so the notion of whether you can prove or disprove is a non sequitur. So I am an atheist and agnosticism cannot apply to me although it may for someone else..
Yup
@TheMiddleWay I'm not sure what you're saying but my comment applies to me, if others agree then great, but there isn't a massive debate to be had for me, it's not about science it's about proof/evidence, i don't see any. It's not a belief or a faith, it's me.
And my claim, although I'm not claiming anything, is totally different to a theists. They claim the existence of something that they think they have proof for, I don't agree.
@TheMiddleWay Ok, gotcha.
I would be happy to accept scientists' claims that the Higgs does exist because I trust the procedures and practices of scientific method to prove or disprove a theory.
I do not accept the evidence of god from a theist because it has not been put through the same rigourous methodology. And that is where the 'faith' bit comes in, lack of fact plonk in faith.
Look at it from the other way round. If you apply religious 'proof; to the Higgs it exists not because of tried and trusted methods of proving or disproving the theory of its existence, it exists because some bloke says so. It doesn't work.
@TheMiddleWay I take your point but that said any belief, and I don't mean religious, can only be based on what the individual believes to be the right way to do something. So for me, show, repeat, prove, disprove etc. So I'm happy that dinosaurs existed because I trust the archaeological method, I don't trust 'religious faith' method. But I concede the point that a theist would say the opposite but.......I don't have faith in a bloke (my phrase lol) I have faith in a method. The problem will I suppose come down to interpretation and semantics which is where I usually get off. But I shall ponder this further
@TheMiddleWay You're most welcome and thx
There's an undetectable God out there and the only way I as an individual will ever know anything about this God is if this God provides a direct revelation. Then is that actually a god in any way shape or form, or just some cosmic dwelling arsehole?
There may be an undetectable porridge monster living on the far side of the sun orbiting at exactly the same rate as the earth, who we can never see or detect because it is always hidden from us, unless it decides one day to stretch out its essential porridgieness and say hello.
That does not mean it is the creator of anything, it certainly has demonstrated no god like abilities and chances are is not a deity at all.
Without being the proclaimed God in one form or another then this undetectable god of whom you speak has more in common with the porridge monster than with any deity of any ever.
So think of it as a potential god at all?
This is basically an argument from ignorance fallacy, "You have not revealed yourself yet, therefore you are God."
You post taken as a whole does not paint you as a Gnostic Atheist, just as an atheist plain and simple with a bit more than the average imagination.
If there is s god out there that is undetectable, then it is no different to a god that doesn't exist.
When a god/s becomes detectable, then I will believe it exists.
Until then, I will remain an atheist as I do not believe the claims that a god/s exists.
Before a belief in God can be established you have to define God. If God is an eternal being in the clouds - then no. If God is the natural forces that created life? - then yes
I'm not sure I'm following this, so I'd like some clarification...
Are you saying you have knowledge that it is impossible that there is any deity? Or are you saying your belief that there isn't a deity is 100% because of the lack of evidence for the deity?
Well damn I thought I was agnostic until I looked up what you said. I don’t see why there needs to be a god but if there is then surely this god can reveal himself to me without any prerequisite of faith. And if that happened I’d hope this god would understand my apprehension to believe even my own experiences and account for the doubt, leaving me 100% sure.
On the issue of a god, as you say there is no evidence, so I have no belief. I do have a belief about an afterlife, or rather a belief that there is none because of information theory. There is no way a soul or spirit can survive one's death physically.