One of my co-workers (she's Catholic) commented during lunch that those that do not have faith have no morals and lead hedonistic lifestyles. I said that one does not have to have faith to have morals. What are some things I can say (if I want to) the next time she brings this up and still be civil?
Jewish fable, re: why atheists exist (Cliffs Notes version): Rabbi says, "When the atheist sees a poor, hungry, homeless person, he doesn't say, 'I'll pray for you'--he says 'I'll help you.' Pretend you're an atheist; don't just call on God to help the suffering. Do it yourself. That's why God made atheists--to remind us to act."
I did a poor job of summarizing this. It's much more impactful when expressed properly.
The message came through perfectly!
Morality did not start with christianity. Direct her towards Plato ( not that she will read of course ?)
I know right! It's such a shame that De Rerum Natura, the Enchrirdion or even the Buddhist Poli cannon weren't the dominating texts over the last 2,500 years. Actual ethics may be valued over bronze aged axiomatic "truths" concerning tribal God of war.
I like this quote from True Detective, it kind of flips the logic on their self-righteous asses.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward then, brother, that person is a piece of shit."
Tell her that you do not have morals. You have principles.
Just ignore her, walk away. You’ll never convince her; she’ll be immune to facts, even facts about you that she can see. Trust me, I was a catholic ?. I actually have a theory that if you scratch 10 atheists, you’ll uncover 9 ex catholics. Not sure if that would work in the USA though.
Point out that the Bible literally commands Christians to kill witches, exodus 21 condones slavery, if you find a woman it's not a virgin on her wedding night you are to bring her to her father's doorstep and stone her, Peter says when are supposed to shut their mouths in church and ask their husband questions when they get home. As far as hedonism Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. The song of Solomon in the Bible is basically devoted to Solomon finding a girl he wants to fuck because she's beautiful. Modern christian's morals are based in secularism. They've cherry picked the good parts of the Bible and thrown away the rest. And they do a religious tap dance to explain away the parts they don't like. We've learned a lot about morals and morality since bronze age goat herders wrote the Bible. But the fundamentals of the Bible are terrible. And as Sam Harris points out, fundamentalism is only a problem if you have bad fundamentals. I would also recommend watching a lecture on YouTube by Matt Dillahunty called the superiority of secular morality, and maybe even reading the moral landscape by Sam Harris.
It’s ok just to say, “you’re mistaken. I just believe in one god less than you do. Look at all the religions in the world except for Catholicism. I agree with you that none of them is valid. Out of the thousands and thousands of gods out there you and I just disagree about one. And that’s it. Morality and hedonism and all that other stuff is another matter. We can talk about that if you’d like.”
I'd reply it's immoral to tar millions of people she doesn't know with the same brush.
My morality is “secular Humanism”. I act in a way that does not harm the well being of others. Much better that Bible morality, for example, Genisis 22, God says “ you can beat your slaves if they do not die within a couple of days” However, as a Secular Humanist, my morality is better because owning or beating slaves is something I can not do, since that harms the well being of others. #end biblical slavery worldwide!
Where is this immoral, hedonistic lifestyle I am supposed to be living? Did I miss the memo?
Read Sam Harris's "Letter to a Christian Nation" and after "A Moral Landscape." Have you read him before? Between him and Christopher Hitchens, you'd have practically endless talking points. Also, the Bible, esp Deuteronomy and the whole of the churchs history. Where to start!!? This is a conversation to speak aloud over the course of years just to include how many ways Christianity is immoral.
Also she is apparently a judgemental asshole. I guess I am not being very civil.
I would say," in light of the huge,global Catholic sex abuse scandal I need you to define morality and hedonism from your viewpoint." Go Socratic let her look stupid trying to explain herself. Ask questions like "who defines morality"? " What other things do you find immoral?" "Are people unlike you immoral?"Let her ignorance make your point. Peace Bob