Are police disproportionally killing (unarmed) black men?
By Admin • 4 years ago •
0
Please note: the author affirms the goal of reducing the chance that anyone dies during a police encounter - especially black men. Also, that there are many reasons why black men encounter police at a higher rate than others including different rates of poverty and bias.
I'm an amature painter. I recently was struck by a photo taken by John Minchillo of four men protesting the death of George Floyd in front of a burning building and decided to paint it.
I had hours to look into the eyes of the shirtless man and his literal "brothers-in-arms" and could see their pain and anger.
While the killing was tragic and worthy of (peaceful) protest, I became angry for a different reason.
These men, and many like them, have been driven to take part in increasingly violent protests because they fully and unquestionably believe that black men are disproportionally being killed by police due to police bias.
They see daily stories the media, educators and activist groups telling them this is true.
But is it true?
A part of being an agnostic is to not rely on "faith" alone to form a belief but to first examine evidence both in support and opposition.
The media and activists routinely show evidence in support that unarmed black men are being killed by police. Every few months when one occurs, we immediately are bombarded by videos and outrage. We rarely hear of white men being killed so naturally we assume that they rarely are.
Let's consider now the evidence in opposition:
According to the Washington Post database, the police fatally shot 9 unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019 or a ratio of 2.1 white people for every black person killed. Since there are about 4.8 white people for every black person in the US, this suggests that unarmed Blacks are about 4.8/2.1 = 2.3 times PER CAPITA more likely to be killed than Whites. However, since the number of unarmed people killed per year is very small (down by more than half since 2015), this ratio changes considerably year-by-year.
As there are about 30 times as many armed people killed by police per year than unarmed, ratios of racial differences is more stable and statistically useful.
Another article by the Washington Post shows that, armed or not, Blacks are killed also around 2.5 times PER CAPITA as Whites. Data: Black 32/Million, Hispanics 24/Million and Whites 13/Million. (Asians rarely get shot)
If we stop here, as the Washington Post does, we only know half of the story.
What they (purposely) don't say are the ratio of crime by race! (why?)
The US Office of Justice Program data shows that:
- Blacks are 4x more likely to commit murder (than whites)
- Blacks are 2.6x more likely to commit aggravated assault
- Blacks are 3.8x more likely to have a gun (yes, only shows arrest data... not general public)
- Other arrest rates are similar except for DUI (whites 14% higher per capita)
It is assumed that the number of potentially life-threatening encounters with police are roughly proportionate to the number of arrests. If so, it would be expected that Blacks have 2-4 times as many chances to be shot and killed by police. This is comparable to the 2.1 and 2.5 ratio we see above in the black/white ratio of deaths of unarmed and armed people.
This means that police are not disproportionately killing Blacks as the shooting rate per-capita disparity is more than accounted for by the number of chances that blacks get involved with the police (while doing violent things)
Why does the media and outrage only follow the shooting of unarmed black men and not white men? Can you name a single one of the 19 unarmed white men shot and killed last year? Why not?
I believe it is to maintain the false narrative that black men are especially in danger from (mostly white) police. It angers me that daily the media, I assume knowingly, repeats this for economic and political gain. Instead of pushing the false narrative, we should be focusing our energy on finding ways to reduce crime by all people and to reduce the chances the police end up killing the people they try to arrest.
Activism and championing the causes of those that are suffering is a noble and humanistic endeavour. We must also be careful to examine the facts that underlie our beliefs so not to be cause of more suffering.
Note: The views and opinions expressed in this article are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the position of this website or its members.
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lerlo
Level 8
Sep 1, 2020
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Annaleda
Level 8
Sep 1, 2020
5
towkneed
Level 7
Sep 1, 2020
Krish55
Level 8
Aug 31, 2020
4
Cutiebeauty
Level 9
Aug 31, 2020
3
skado
Level 9
Aug 31, 2020
2
LenHazell53
Level 9
Aug 31, 2020
4
RavenCT
Level 9
Aug 31, 2020
6
Kafirah
Level 8
Aug 31, 2020
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Nunya
Level 6
Aug 31, 2020
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AnneWimsey
Level 9
Aug 31, 2020
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14 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button."This means that police are not disproportionately killing Blacks as the shooting rate per-capita disparity is more than accounted for by the number of chances that blacks get involved with the police (while doing violent things)"
Nice try, but like most initial premises that are wrong so is yours...there is ZERO correlation between the people committing violent crimes and the unarmed black people killed by police. If there was, those black people would most likely be armed. But it is fun to try and twist the numbers to back up your premise isn't it? Basically what you're saying is that since black people commit more violent crimes it's ok to shoot them regardless of the circumstances. Seven times in the back is also probably the proportionate number of times to be shot based on some per capita figures you can come up with. But you got your magazine piece! Congrats!
lerlo
Level 8
Sep 1, 2020
2
1992
In my car at night, nine months preggers, lying down on the front seat; hubby driving.
Police lights flash. Cop comes up, flashlight in Hubby’s face.
Hubby asks why he was pulled over. Cop says the license plate light was out.
I sit up and tell cop that since the car was mine, I was going to get out and he was going to show me.
Cop sees that I am white, tells us we can go.
2010
White BF is driving my car. My son is in the back seat, me in the passenger seat. Sports car with rear louvers.
Cop asks for his id. I ask why he was pulled over. Cop leans in to look at me. Sees my son in the back seat. Asks him for his id. My 17 year old son. My 17 year old, Black son.
2020
Son’s girlfriend driving her car. Son in passenger seat.
Police lights flash. Son’s GF pulls over. Cops go to both sides. Ask Son for id first.
#becauseIhaveablackson
Annaleda
Level 8
Sep 1, 2020
5
He is an Air Force Veteran. Never been in trouble with the law.
The problem I find with both the narrative discussed and the article is the concept of race itself. Race is an artificial distinction - it "has no genetic basis" (http://www.pbs.org/race/001_WhatIsRace/001_00-home.htm). It is a social construct into which persons often self-classify (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28human_categorization%29?wprov=sfla1 - please note the frequent references and lack of issues), which "Today, scientists consider such biological essentialism obsolete and generally discourage racial explanations for collective differentiation in both physical and behavioral traits. " (same as above).
As a social construct it is defined in specific cases by group agreement and that groups common perceptions of the traits of a specific race(https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/social_construct). Thus it's defined by police when they say "white male on foot" or "black male holding a gun". It is assumed that the subject would identify in the same way, although they are not asked. It follows that where race is reported and crime is reported the reporters perceptions of race would skew his report. If the reporter belongs to a group (e.g. police) whose definition of a particular race (e.g. African American) includes a propensity for violent behavior then, when defining the individual's race, he will be simultaneously making unwarranted assumptions that would lead escalation and violence. This would lead to it being reported in official channels, further ensuring the perceptions by which the reporting group delineates its racial classification.
The entire narrative of "race" has historical roots in the justifications of one group to subjugate another (https://www.britannica.com/topic/race-human/The-history-of-the-idea-of-race). We all belong to the human race, and as long as our society upholds ideas of racial essentialism and behavioral differences we will be encouraging division. Division that is rooted in our subjective (mis)perceptions of fundamental behavioral differences. The problem exists here - some see a victim and others see an aggressor. But we must keep in mind that it's often those seeing an aggressor, at least historically seeing one, that are holding guns and making reports.
towkneed
Level 7
Sep 1, 2020
0
@Admin Thanks for the response. Probably not. And I do think there's a problem, however I think it's one created artificially by our own perceptions and insecurities. To me a perfect solution would be to wipe the very concept away, that race is real and somehow determinant of behavior. From my readings it didn't exist as a social classification until the 1800s (references above address this). But it's not an idea that going away - it's become so ingrained that it often serves as a proxy for cultural classifications (rap, early rock n roll referred to as "race music" ), despite artists and works always " crossing- over". The child whose parents consider themselves "black" will often grow up with the music and shows both familiar to his parents and which reflect their reality, which is effected by the perceptions others have of them. So it's often created by those effected by the same perceptions. Perceptions based upon an artificial classification. And the classification becomes synonymous with the art engendered by its perceptions. So you get "black music", "black TV shows", "black movies", etc and the artificial classification is now culturally entrenched (although the ultimate commonality of the human experience guarantees an appeal to everyone). The perceptions and belief in its reality have helped create something that reinforces itself, despite having no real, scientifically verifiable basis (science says the opposite). At least that's my idea of how it works.
I think the best thing to expect of anyone is to accept absolute racial equality and pay attention to the complaints of others. I think that's something we can agree on. I also think that, since negative perceptions not rooted in fact may be driving behavior, whether it's likely or not to agree upon fundamental issues, we can at least address the negative perceptions.
Of course these are just my opinions- I offer no sources.
Your argument rests on the claim that blacks are more likely to commit crime. You do acknowledge that poverty is a factor is this. I don't disagree with you so far. In every country, the lower class commits more ordinary crime (as opposed to white collar theft and corruption).
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However one glaring flaw in your argument is this. The same party that is accused of unnecessary racist killing (the police) is the one that is determining that a crime has been committed and needs to be policed. Do you for a moment doubt that blacks are aggressively over-policed? If so you are ignoring the testimony of whites and blacks who have attested to this. You are ignoring the repeatedly racist comments made by police and their membership in racist organizations. Repeatedly picking on blacks for chickenshit nonsense leads to resistance which leads to blacks being shot - the desired outcome by some cops.
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But even worse that that, you are ignoring the totally innocent blacks that are killed, like 12-year old Tamir Rice. Can you point to a white kid like that killed by the cops? Can you point to a white woman like Sandra Bland who was taken to prison simply because she answered the cop affirmatively that she didn't like being stopped? Taken to prison and ending up dead? Can you point to a white man like Stephon Clark shot in his grandma's yard for having a cellphone?
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You are also ignoring the history of policing in the South. After the Civil War, harvest time somehow providentially produced a spate of criminality in blacks leading to them having to work for free in chain gangs for the former plantation master. This now exists in private prisons that need to be filled with inmates that work for a dollar a day. The post-Civil War, racially-targeted policing set the tone for the policing that we see today. (The songs Chain Gang and Midnight Special refer to this policing that ended up creating a new slavery.)
Johnathan Swift in Gulliver's Travels ridiculed your post's type of ivory tower theorizing that ignored the all facts on the ground. George Bernard Shah could have been referring to your study when he said, "There are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics."
You wield the study you cite like Christians and Muslims waving their holy books. Engaging in supposed rational analysis without all the relevant evidence is just as rational as their expansive religious claims based on fragments of dimly remembered and distorted history.
Krish55
Level 8
Aug 31, 2020
4
the need to reform the mentally warped among the police is a valid but somewhat separate issue. the sociopaths among the cops need to be weeded out. but one thing all cops have in common is the desire to go home alive at the end of their shift. it is rational for them to "profile" and the only honest way to fix that is to reduce criminality among blacks. its the blacks who need to fucus their energy on weeding out the criminals among them.
Greetings Earthling ... On my planet, we don't have black and white citizens.. They are yellow and blue.. But we suffered similar issues as you.. You see, the yellows were 1000 strong while the blues only numbered 100. Every week, 20 yellows and 10 blues were killed or murdered for various reasons.. Our statisticians said everything was OK, there was no bias or discrimination involved.. We foolishly believed these numbers... Ten weeks later, the blue citizens were extinct while there were still 800 yellows.. Only yellows.. And magically, the daily killings stopped... For the yellows had no one else to hate... Three days later, the statisticians were arrested and sentenced to life in prison for falsifying the numbers, also called cooking the books..
Have a nice day Earthling.. 
Cutiebeauty
Level 9
Aug 31, 2020
3
"I wonder why there are not any green kids there 
"
I like that.. It shows you understand. ☺
" In the US, blacks have less than a 1 in a million chance of being killed by police per year."
How does one avoid the police when the police target you?
“I believe it is to maintain the false narrative that black men are especially in danger from (mostly white) police.”
“We must also be careful to examine the facts that underlie our beliefs so not to be cause of more suffering.”
- Admin
.
OK, Mr.Admin, let’s do some careful examining. You have used statistics to try to indicate that
“the number of chances that blacks get involved with the police (while doing violent things)” is greater than that of whites.
But you stop short of telling us what you believe the cause is. Let’s go ahead and finish your article. If it is truth you are after, let’s trace the chain of cause and effect all the way to ground.
If it is true that blacks come into contact with police more often than whites, what are the possible causes of that? What do you believe?
Do you believe blacks are genetically more predisposed to violence? What do you believe drives this elevated statistic of police encounters? And what are the statistics, facts, and scientifically derived data upon which you base your belief?
“If we stop here, as the Washington Post does, we only know half of the story. What they (purposely) don't say are the ratio of crime by race! (why?)”
Why indeed. Are you saying blacks commit more crime because of their race? Have you (purposely?) not said why you believe that is the case? Let’s not stop here. Let’s finish the rational investigation.
I’m here to learn. I don’t want to be led by a corrupt corporate media, or mass hysteria, into believing something that isn’t supported by facts. I’m open to hearing new information, no matter how un-PC it might be, as long as it’s supported by adequate evidence.
Please finish filling in the evidence. What verifiable facts support the idea that humans of African descent are inherently more inclined to lives of crime, as opposed to just responding as any human would to hundreds of years of discrimination, oppression, slavery, beatings, rape and murder?
skado
Level 9
Aug 31, 2020
2
@Admin
Thanks for clarifying.
Though I can't guarantee others wouldn't, I'm really not into name-calling. And I'm definitely not trying to get you to say it's solely caused by racism, because I wouldn't claim that myself. Rarely is any social phenomenon ever so simple as being caused by only one thing.
I'm just trying to understand exactly what you are arguing for in your article. I realize you narrowed it to one point, but why is that one point so salient for you?
You categorically state early on that these men have been driven, by stories from the media, educators, and activists, to believe that police are disproportionally killing blacks.
This appears to assume that there could be nothing else driving them. Upon what evidence do you make this assumption? Do you assume that every activist is able to accurately articulate the reasons they feel what they feel, even when legitimate reasons do exist? Do you assume that the word "disproportionate" only applies to numbers and ratios, and has nothing to do with fairness?
You then go on to make the "All Lives Matter" argument, while assuming, without supporting evidence, that the media's motivation is for economic and political gain. Can you think of any other possibilities?
Can you steelman the activists' argument to their satisfaction? Do you know what it is? Do you know what's wrong with the All Lives Matter argument? Do you know what's energizing your anger?
In your response to my first comment, you sidestep the question I asked three times by mentioning other, very reasonable possible contributions to the problem and some reasonable possible solutions. I won't ask the fourth time, but I feel the need to note the absence of a denial. I wouldn't call you crazy for wanting to avoid the wrath of the mob - it can really be insane and destructive. But it won't come from me. If there is well-established scientific evidence supporting substantial racial differences, I would not blame the messenger. But without that, it just looks like unconscious emotional bias. We humans are like that.
I hope my questions will be received in the same spirit in which they are offered - just getting at the facts. My intentions are not to crucify anybody for their beliefs, no matter what they happen to be. I'm as likely to be mistaken as anyone. I'm just very curious to know if there is information or insights out there that I have overlooked.
We all like to believe that our political or religious or philosophical positions are based in reality instead of unconscious emotional reactions. That is what I love about dialogue - it has the potential to help us see the world through others' eyes, and perhaps thereby see it a tiny bit more accurately than we could alone. I am very grateful for this free platform for doing just that.
Several of my favorite members of this very lovely site have now abandoned it, believing it's creator to be secretly using it, and them, to further an extremist right-wing agenda (my words, not theirs - but that's the gist). I haven't seen sufficient evidence to support that suspicion, and it wouldn't make me want to leave if I did. I tend to hold everyone innocent, even if proven guilty. 
It would only make me more curious why people might hold such positions to begin with.
But I have to say... this article, even after your clarifications... opens more questions than it closes.
You are completely ignoring the context of the killings.
In many cases the black person having been shot has been doing nothing more than driving a car, all be it one the policeman who killed them has judged to be too "nice" to be being driven by a black person and is therefore in a situation to be considered "suspicious".
I have been myself stopped like this, but only when traveling in a car, or when walking the street with my friend and colleague Courtney, who I have known since the age of 12 and who was born on the Island on St. Vincent.
Apparently a white man walking or driving with a black man needs to be checked upon, just in case he is under duress.
White people shot and killed are usually already in the act of, or have been caught immediately after committing a criminal act far in excess of driving while in possession of a larger than expected amount of melanin
LenHazell53
Level 9
Aug 31, 2020
4
We have even had a female MP and an Olympic athlete stopped for no valid reason, driving on the streets of London in recent weeks, and guess what ...they were black.
I literally fear more for my black law abiding cousins more than I do for any law breaking white friends I have.
They are more apt to be pulled over for 'driving while black' and a host of other nonsense. Simply due to skin color. Despite being utterly law abiding.
And how about how the system rigged itself so more blacks got put in Prisons for ridiculous crimes like having weed on them? Like that hasn't been a white conspiracy to put poor black folks in prison and to earn money off their backs. Both by having them in prison and by their labor!
This is one of the most racist things I've ever read here.
You numbers are skewed. Either side can pull figures to suit themselves we've seen it time and again.
RavenCT
Level 9
Aug 31, 2020
6
@Admin However what we believe is that the police interact disproportionately with Blacks. That we saw police throwing KKK signs at the rallies was horrifying. (That low "OK" sign is a Klan sign. (You can Google that and find references).
It makes us question - as white people - what our police force is up to in their off time and what their agenda is.
Is does not put us on their side.
I've actually worked with cops who were trained in the way we'd want police trained going forward. They were taught about racism - how different races may react in different ways due to cultural influences and upbringing - and they were taught about the Mental Health issues and the issues that having drugs on board can cause - so they could respond appropriately.
These cops did not strike me as brutish thugs. They were intelligent people who were trainable - I'm pretty sure a lot of cops hit the academy that way - and than the conditioning begins. (And it's not pretty in some States). We're fortunate here it seems mostly better...
I see little that makes me hope some of these Gestapoesque thugs we've been seeing on the news beating protestors and even the folks offering First Aid - could ever be taught such ways.
It does not mean I am without hope - just that in this time - at this juncture - hope seems very limited.
It may indeed come to Civil war to change things to be fairer to all.
It's been a very unjust system for far too long. The serfs are angry - and rightfully so.
And Black People? They've had it badly since our forefathers dragged them from their homes. (Well not mine exactly they were still in France). But still I take on the white guilt of the whole thing. Who doesn't?
So you aren't going to include facts like black people make up 13.6% of the population of America, while white people make up 67.4%? Because that fucking matters quite a goddamn lot. So, you want statistics? Cool. Here's some.
- even if cops kill twice as many white people as they do black people, since white people make up 5X the population, that means that black people are being killed at 3X the rate of white people per capita. A 2018 study in the American Journal of Public Health found the mortality rate by police per 100,000 was 1.9 to 2.4 for black men, 0.8 to 1.2 for Hispanic men and 0.6 to 0.7 for white men.
- If your statistics were true, then why the fuck aren't white people marching in the streets against police brutality against them too?
- This article is racist as fuck and you make me fucking sick.
- Everybody is gonna see you for the fucked up racist bigot you are now. Good job
- You are shit at math and don't understand statistics
- You obviously didn't do a damn bit of actual research before writing this.
Kafirah
Level 8
Aug 31, 2020
3
Jeez this is racist. Did you ever think that the black incarceration rate has anything to do with why there are more black people arrested for violent crime than whites? According to the Census Bureau, Blacks make up only 13.4% of the population, but according to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, they make up 38.3% of the prison population. Whites, on the other hand, make up 76.3% of the population, but only 57.8% of the prison population. [census.gov] [bop.gov]
I could go on to quote the many studies the media are using to come to their very justified conclusions, but it's clear you're not interested. Many sociological studies demonstrate that because of how statistics are collected patch-work style in the U.S. it is difficult to make statistically valid conclusions about any race committing significantly more violent crime than any other, yet black people are disproportionately policed & imprisoned. Also, studies show that blacks are disproportionately the VICTIM of violent crimes. But, in 2013, the FBI has black criminals carrying out 38 per cent of murders, compared to 31.1 per cent for whites. The offender’s race was “unknown” in 29.1 per cent of cases. That is not a huge difference. [channel4.com] "The Media" actually bothers to conduct thorough research.
Nunya
Level 6
Aug 31, 2020
6
@Admin First off, academic study from the 1970's: From the article: MANY STUDIES HAVE SHOWN THAT BLACKS ARE MORE VULNERABLE TO ARREST THAN WHITES; OTHERS HAVE SHOWN THAT EVEN AFTER CONVICTION BLACKS ARE THE OBJECTS OF DISCRIMINATION, AS THEY RECEIVE LONGER PRISON SENTENCES AND LESS OFTEN RECEIVE THE BENEFITS OF PROBATION AND PAROLE. IN THE 10 YEARS SINCE 1967, THE PRISON SYSTEM'S POPULATION HAS SHIFTED FROM A MAJORITY OF WHITES TO A MAJORITY OF BLACKS. THE AUTHOR ASSERTS THAT A NEW STRATEGY HAS BEEN DESIGNED TO ENSURE THAT WHEN A BLACK OFFENDER RETURNS TO THE COMMUNITY HE IS WORSE THAN WHEN HE WAS COMMITTED. All caps are the author's emphasis, not mine. [ncjrs.gov]
@Admin Here is another collection of multiple studies: [washingtonpost.com] I find it of particular interest to note: A 2019 study of police stops in Cincinnati found that black motorists were 30 percent more likely to be pulled over than white motorists. Black motorists also comprised 76 percent of arrests following a traffic stop despite making up 43 percent of the city’s population. It’s worth noting, again, that multiple studies have shown that searches of white motorists are slightly more likely to turn up contraband than searches of black motorists.
@Admin A 2018 report to the United Nations: [sentencingproject.org] From the report: The United States criminal justice system is the largest in the world. At yearend 2015, over 6.7 million individuals1) were under some form of correctional control in the United States, including 2.2 million incarcerated in federal, state, or local prisons and jails.2) The U.S. is a world leader in its rate of incarceration, dwarfing the rate of nearly every other nation.3)
Such broad statistics mask the racial disparity that pervades the U.S. criminal justice system, and for African Americans in particular. African Americans are more likely than white Americans to be arrested; once arrested, they are more likely to be convicted; and once convicted, and they are more likely to experience lengthy prison sentences. African-American adults are 5.9 times as likely to be incarcerated than whites and Hispanics are 3.1 times as likely.4)
@Admin I had no idea what you were talking about when you referred to "the Harvard study." I just clicked on it - that was a study I had pulled off of google & was completely horrified by due to it's overt racism. I obviously attached it in error. It was written in the 1990's with data mostly from the 1980's. I'm not even going to start an argument about why data from this era was inherently biased. But I have removed it from the reply as it represents everything that is wrong about how white America has collected & manipulated statistics over the years to fit a convenient narrative. I am leaving this comment here to show why I removed it. Here is the link where you can access multiple studies over the years on official crime victim statistics: [bjs.gov]
Your statistics on crime rates are severely skewed as they reflect Convictions, and it is well known, and acknowledged, that blacks are more likely to be convicted of more serious charges (not necessarily crimes!) while whites are more often plea-bargained or let off with lighter sentences.
In addition, the protests are about black men being pulled off the streets (TARGETED) for "being black" and then killed because, in the case of Floyd, he was SUPPOSEDLY trying to pass a counterfeit $20. Which as far as I know would not draw a death sentence in any venue. Not about Convictions in any way, shape, or form.Theses types of deaths should never happen, anywhere, anytime!!!!
Your disingenuous arguments, and the entire article (replete with "ASSumptions" ), is not germane to the protests....but you knew that already, didn't you......
AnneWimsey
Level 9
Aug 31, 2020
8
Thank You!!!
@Admin again, the data DOES support that black men are TARGETED for "being black" in ways that lead to their death/serious injury. Why do you keep repeating an obvious falsehood?
@Admin If black cops were killing unarmed white men we'd have country wide lynchings. To suggest that the media is the cause or that white men get shot too is just an attempt to diminish the racism problem. Like the right saying more people die in car accidents or by the flu each year than by COVID-19 so therefore it's not a big deal. No way to justify or to diminish racism.
@Admin Thanks for trying to diminish that comment. The key word there was IF it whites were being killed by black officers at the same rate as blacks are killed by white officers there would be lynchings and no one would bat an eye, no waiting for them, to be charged.
@Admin wow you think it's ok to shoot someone for opening a car door...you are the devil. Great, police departments need to be reformed , period.
You like to do research find out how many b.s. calls to the police about a white man holding a gun in a car with an unknown color from across the street. Why doesn't the media cover those!!!
[news.yahoo.com]