I was asked this question today by a theist. If there is no God why is safe sex between brother and sister immoral to an atheist? This guy was smart to add safe sex because it closed off my avenue to argue the health issue. So, I was thinking why is it immoral if it is consensual? I understand we find it gross but is that because of Christian influence?
non sequitur , the question is too vague to be answered definitively one way or the other. An incestuous relationship between legally consenting parties is none of my business provided that intercourse does not result in the birth of a child. There is no sensible reason to subject a child to that kind of genetic predisposition to defect and social scorn. Otherwise, I couldn't give a toss.
Game of Thrones is pure fantasy but it's rife with incest. I lean towards thinking religion swayed everyone towards believing what they chose you to believe. Aside from that apparently incest is relatively common throughout history. The deformity debate is moot because two unrelated people can create deformity as well but not necessarily with a higher degree of chance. Takeaway the religious aspect and the deformity aspect add in consensual agreement and you have two people willingly having sex. There is nothing immoral about it.
The idea that we end up with people like our parents and are like our parents should clearly demonstrate how much of our attraction to others and everything is caught up in our early relationships. I think that those relationships are important because they help us learn and understand power differentials and security. If your father put his arms around you and that where you felt safest and you want big, strong, manly arms around you, I think that 40 years later, if it is still important to you, there is still a power differential in that relationship and it’s an abuse of that power, inherently coercive, to engage in a relationship. By that same notion, siblings who are close in age are like their parents, but age at different rates, so the power dynamic in the relationship can change which may even enhance those feelings.
I gave an answer only in order to comment here. I was not given the proper option of being able to say it is neither.
Sex is a physical and emotional experience that can run the full spectrum from incredibly wonderful to mind crushingly horrible. Fortunately, it is at least good for most or the species would have been extinct long ago.
As I see it, there is no moral or immoral element to be dealt with here, in spite of what we have done with it since the beginning of proscriptions. Early clans of an emerging species (us) were made up mainly of family members, but occasionally new genetic material would present itself and saved us from becoming -- well, you know. So, interfamilial relations have been with us all along the chain of evolution. The first time a distinction was made was when someone noticed the mortality/deformity/mental deficiency rate seemed to be connected to such behavior. Whoever they may have been who noticed this, we will never know, but it was never seen as a moral issue -- not even in the 'holy writings' of all the early religions is there an unambiguous set of rules. There are some proscriptions laid out in Leviticus, but even that leaves room for various forms of relations between relatives and is silent on the issue when it comes to parents and their offspring.
I think the 'immoral' aspect came to force based on the physical problems of such unions when children were a result. It took a long while for someone to realize the physical problems and the relations were somehow connected (they knew nothing of genetics) and a taboo began -- from which sprang the morality/legality issue.
Now that we understand the genetic elements and how they work -- and we have ways of avoiding having children -- I question the efficacy of the moral/immoral issue. If two people, regardless of familial ties, wish to experience sex between them and they take the right precautions, where is the problem?
This is an interesting article:
I guess I find incest icky because I can't imagine being attracted to my sister, if I had one. Now I am atheist but this has nothing to do with religion it has to do with science and history. The royal families of Europe were all about inbreeding and look how they turned out.
There are isolated situations where you are dealing with blended families, not being related other than thru marriage, they start to like each other.. a lot and fall for one another. That is one thing. But siblings that are biologically related, I don't feel or believe this is good. Other than the well known long term health risks with mentally deformities being passed thru the genes. I have heard of 1st cousins get married and have no issues but then again, it all depends on the people involved.
Definitely immoral. Many times the younger child doesn't understand what is happening and then they feel guilty if/when they feel pleasure. They may also may have been threatened so they will not tell.
If they are consenting adults then society still condemns it for health reasons for any progeny produced as a result of their actions. Inbreeding is generally frowned upon for just that reason.
I picked moral because no matter what my personal view is, which we are all entitled to, it is none of my business.
If you made it between consenting adults who weren't going to procreate and possibly create problems with the genetics of their offspring? Possibly okay.
But prior to adulthood? Never - no way no how.
And there lies the problem. If it's ok between adults - kids are going to say "why not us?". And some adults are going to look at kids... and... yup yikes. There you go. Sexual abuse.
(Which already happens a shit ton).
I'm ok with leaving incest taboos just as they are for that reason.
Plus it squicks me hard - and I'm find with that. Whether it's from a Roman Catholic Upbringing or a Genetic Survival Instinct? I don't care.
(Also 2017 - how did this post reactivate? Holy hell... ) lol
1.older members of a family have a position of power over younger members and abuse this power when starting a sexual relationship. This causes psychological harm.
2.It is not prudent to take the of a procreating, that would be at a genetic disadvantage and intensify genetic weakness in their gene pool.
3.Taboos exsist for many good reasons; maybe others can come up with other good reasons.
Does it cause suffering? If it does not then its moral. Might be hard to explain to the neighbors but if its consensual sex between adults and there won't be any dodgy offspring then why not?
That’s an if, then structure. No suffering=morality. I need to ponder that. You added consensual which may dot the eye. I was sexually attracted to my beautiful cousin for years but never gave sleeping with her any real thought. I have a male friend who has gone, in recent years , to bed with her( cuz) asked me later on what I thought of this. “You’re my dear friend and I accept that which you are” He’s response” boy I needed that and I needed to tell you”
I know in many old cultures it was actually quite common, but due to the health issues it usually lead to collapsing dynasties.
Don’t worry about health, although DNA can be an issue . It never applied to me with my neuclear family no thoughts ever but I had a cousin ... wow. Go luck sorting this out
There's no morality about it. Its just fucked up. It has so many genetic and medical downsides that I would never condone it. But i think 2 consenting adults should be able to do what ever they want as long as it doesnt harm others
I don't think there is anything unethical about it as long precautions not to have children are done. I think to have children with a relative is extremely selfish and unethical due to the high genetic problems risks. I really think that anyone who is in a incestual relationship should commit to being willing to have an abortion if that situation arises. Of course there are other measures to prevent childbirth , but if they don't work an abortion should be had.
It is immoral because it will lead to children with genetic deformitys
Well the hypothetical says that they are practicing safe sex and I suspect that even if pregnancy was impossible you might still find it immoral. The question is to figure out why it's immoral. Is it cultural bias or is it truly immoral. I don't see it as a moral question I think it's just wise not to for emotional reasons
@paul1967 I know I would find it too uncomfortable myself but I suppose I could not say it was immoral as that would be placing restrictions on others. I am pretty much of the viewpoint that any consensual acts between two adults is okay.
@mooredolezal Agreed, I'm 100% behind your statement.
Rarely if any : CF is autosomal dominatant , that a problem
@paul1967 no in that case I would not.
@paul1967, @Millerski25 I've heard both sides and I am of the opinion that if there is an unreasonable risk of deformity then no, otherwise yes. Safe sex would negate this issue. However, I would never deny people the right to make their own decisions as long as they were consenting adults. To me it is a health issue, not one of morality.
@paul1967 good logic and debate... return to the question at hand... nicely done. Red herring syndrome
@Millerski25 thanks
Incestuous relationships are more.common in certain areas of the world. We can't simply say "ew gross" because of our adversion to it. Genetically speaking everyone has offered why it's not a good idea as recrssive genes. However socially speakjbg there is no good reason why it is Immoral
It's so clear it's wrong, can't think of anything decent about it. We cannot do just anything we want. Sad if anyone thinks it's okay.
Why is it wrong if it's two consenting adults that take responsible measures to not get pregnant?
Are you saying that other cultures which allow it are indecent?
Any time close relatives have sex and a pregnancy results, the couple is playing sexual Russian roulette. Recessive genes that can produce disorders exist in almost every person, having accumulated over thousands of years. When close relatives interbreed, the risk of those recessive genes being in both parents and making a disordered child skyrockets. A disordered child is wasted reproductive potential. It is always better for people to find mates outside the family.
"23 and me", and other genetic testing labs, can provide one with information about potential recessive gene issues.
It is funny how technology both creates new ethical issues, yet resolves others.
We find it gross because we have evolved that sentiment to prevent chromosome damage. Same reason we feel sick when we smell rotten meat. Our instincts are telling us it's not good for us.
I don't think it's a moral issue and I don't care if cousins or siblings do it as long as they are safe. Same reason I don't care whether people drink or do drugs, unless they are pregnant. What you do with your life is nobody's business but yours; as long as you don't hurt people, kids included.
i don't see it as a moral issue. it was presented (eons ago) as a moral issue because god was obviously punishing people who slept with close relations (genetically punishing them, right?) but safe sex, and we're talking adults... it makes people cringe. it makes ME cringe. but on a moral level, i can't see anything wrong with it, as long as reproduction is not involved. well, maybe one thing: if it becomes the norm, reproduction is LIKELY to become involved in most cases. people do have unsafe sex, no matter what you tell them to do. that is why some states require a blood test before issuing a marriage license.
g
p.s. i do wonder what you mean by christian influence. the taboo dates back WELL before christianity!
@genessa Hominids/Humans eventually evolved from a very early mammalian species that was around during the final decades or so of the Age of the Dinosaurs, that in turn slowly evolved into numerous other forms, one of which was the earliest primate type species and over more ages of time it too evolved and various "off-shoot" species evolved from there, one being the earliest hominids such Australopithecus and onwards until man ( Homo Sapiens) arrived upon the scene. Ergo, " before the Evolution of Mankind" is NOT incorrect.
Prehistoric is simply a broad terminology used to describe events etc, that occurred BEFORE written Historical Records were kept.
Yes, evolution is a continual process but it has a starting point for every living thing and for some it also has a finishing point whether by natural terrestrial, extra-terrestrial or, in the case of human actions and interventions, slow extinction events such as humans are bringing upon the life of animals etc, ( including our own future generations) on this planet.
Why then, since Incestuous mating, according to your comment only seems to have occurred in humans, out the thousands and thousands of fossils of earlier animal species, etc, have there not been the malformations/deformities found that are directly attributable to incestuous behavior amongst them?
@Triphid i didn't say incest started only with human beings, or that it is unique to human beings! gosh, why would i say that? my cat tries to hump his daughters all the time (good thing he's fixed). i didn't, and i wouldn't, say that. and i know what prehistoric means, thanks. i said incest taboos in humans predates written history. i don't know why or how, but think you thought i said the opposite of what i said! i might also note that there is no clear date when suddenly homo sapiens popped into being. it was a slow process like so much else, and mankind as we know it involves a little cross-breeding with neanderthals, who, i suspect, may have had the same taboos against incest. i believe there are other animals (not my kitties) that have such taboos, but they don't write them down lol
g
Moral and immoral seem to be judgements handed down by the church. Sex between 2 consenting adults is no one elses business.
If that be your opinion then I feel sorry for both you and any future generations that hold to your principles for most surely there will be some possibly horrific malformations/deformities occurring in your genetic lines of the future.