Referring to a fetus as a child - saw it in a member post, raises the religious flag in my opinion.
As an atheist/agnostic do you use the scientific term 'fetus' and eschew terms such as 'unborn child'?
It seems religion is too strongly associated with this controversy and perhaps as the novelty of the guy in sky thing becomes old and tired; their only perceived source of continued relevancy is to stir up a big old pot of social issues where their definition of "good and bad" aligns with their warped translation of an old, poorly translated book with omitted chapters. By the way - It's a fetus, an embryo or a zygote.
No, an Aristotle advocate can be pro like from birth, if you follow his potentially actually scheme
Verbatim, No.
Practically, Yes.
I.e - All non-religious people I know are Pro-Choice. A few religious people I know are Pro-Choice. All Pro-lifer's are religious. (I feel like this needs one of those fancy Venn Diagrams to model)
I am definitely Pro-Choice, but still think abortion is a poor decision. Omitting life threatening pregnancies and rapes, etc..... On the grounds that: sex = chance of pregnancy. We gotta exercise some self-control. Abortion needs to be an option on the table if & when it gets to that point, but that doesn't make it a good option. If that makes sense.
I consider myself to be both an atheist and pro-life,
I think the connection between religion and pro-life primarily stems from the faulty moral reasoning brought on by theistic philosophy: the only justification required for a religious person is "God said so." I think it's reasonable to guess that the vast majority of pro-lifers are religious, so, with their philosophy based in theism, the pro-life movement will look arbitrary and manipulative.
As for myself I think that my stance on abortion has only been solidified since I left Catholicism.
Here is a summary of my beliefs on the issue:
It seems clear to me that the most valuable thing to any person is their life, as any right, benefit, or relief a person receives is useless if that person is dead. Therefore, the ultimate violation of an individual is to kill them, thus depriving them of every freedom in one move. I think it is arbitrary to dictate which persons are deserving of this protection, from the old to the newborn. And, as an extension, I don't see any non-arbitrary or substantial distinction between a child in the womb and a newborn. As the crippling majority of gametes, both male and female, never develop past being a gamete, I think it's fair to distinguish them as separate from an individual.
Maybe I am wrong, but I see myself as having approached the issue rationally.
And from the safe standpoint of never having to be in a situation where you have to choose between a fetus' "life" and YOUR future or health.
There are profound consequences of pregnancy,childbirth and child rearing. The maternal mortality rates in the US are astoundingly high and climbing every year.
Furthermore,if you don't die,you can develop lifelong health issues from diabetes to birth injuries to autoimmune disorders.
Then once you're a parent there are all the concerns that come with raising a child. Can you work or otherwise support your family or must you be dependent on your spouse or parents.
If you do work,how do you balance the increasing expectations of the workplace and it's incursions into your personal life? Do you have any idea the amount of administrators I've personally heard say things like"she has kids, I'm just not confidant she can handle the extra responsibility"?
Even of you don't get stuck with misogynist bosses, how do you handle a job and doctors appointments and birthday parties and enrichment classes and the appropriate amount of social interaction and one on one parenting time?
It's neverending and exhausting and no one who does not enthusiastically enter into it with a clear understanding of what it entails should be a parent.
@Blindbird It seems to me that every single person on earth has been at the mercy of this choice to have their life terminated before they're born, so I don't see how anyone could be excluded from this conversation. You also seem to assume that there is no way for a man to contribute and suffer from the raising of a child and that there is no release for a mother from her responsibilities.
For any giving actions there are sacrifices, but maternal mortality is an absurd figure to point out, as it is not connected to whether or not abortion is allowed. The U.S. does have high maternal mortality rates, but that is connected to bureaucracy and a lack of funding for maternal care. Ireland has banned abortion for near a hundred years but has less than a fifth of the U.S.' maternal mortality rate.
"If you don't die" is grossly overdramatic in comparison to the statistics. In 2015 the reported chance of a mother dying in the U.S. during a live birth was 0.000264%. Just being able to take on a disorder doesn't mean anything. I could get skin cancer from going outside, but that doesn't mean I'm going to live in a basement for the rest of my life. Furthermore, if getting a disorder is so much worse than killing the fetus, wouldn't maternal mortality be irrelevant as death seems to be a non-issue?
You don't have to be a parent after the child is born. No one is forcing anyone to raise a child. A child can be put up for adoption. And as for the emotional pain of adoption goes, abortion can't protect against that either, as it is brought on by hormones produced before and after pregnancy.
This paragraph seems to be very rationally dissonant. Your next point talks about how hard to manage child rearing can be. It seems like these administrators are in agreement with you.
Again, you don't have to raise the child alone or at all (although my mother figured it out). If you have a spouse, that's a whole other person to take up the responsibilities with you. Personally, I wouldn't look down on anyone who'd want to go for the adoption route either. It's a valid choice.
I agree with this last point. It's a lot to handle, and I've had the opportunity of witnessing the process as the second eldest of eight kids. But, abortion is no answer. I see no reason to see it as anything but the taking of another human life. I think it is highly irresponsible of our society to not treat the action with the weight it deserves, but I blame that on irrational theists who have poisoned the discourse.
@Sheitelhau neither you or anyone else has a right to demand that someone else take those risks. Period. The effects and risks of pregnancy and childbirth are very real and there's no way to predict with much accuracy whether a pregnancy will have adverse affects or not.
US law CLEARLY states that an individual is under no legal obligation to risk their health or life for the life of another individual.
If you demand that every woman carry every pregnancy to term you're creating a special class of people who's Rights are subservient to the rights of others. That is untenable in a free and equal society.
Furthermore you have absolutely not lived the reality of being a single mother. You have exactly zero experience of how it works. Therefore your opinion carries significantly less weight. You very simply know nothing about what you're opining on.
@Blindbird you think it's bad to force people to take such a miniscule risk? How about forcing an almost 100% risk of death? How is your argument not grossly hypocritical in this regard? Why on Earth does it matter what current U.S. law is? Isn't this conversation about what the law should be? And, aren't the human rights of the fetus entirely forfeit, whether you value them or not? Your arguments are so unprincipled they could easily be used to justify the euthanization of any child under 18! Your arbitrary decision that I am unqualified to give my opinion is nothing more than a diversion so that you can avoid strengthening your own arguments. Should all legislatures need to have a murdered family member in order to talk about the appropriate punishments for murderers?
I’m pro-life in a very generic sense (not in the political sense for which the term was popularized - I’m pro-choice in that regard) but I favor a life-affirming outlook over the cult of death attitude. But more to the point of your question… no, apparently not. I just encountered a person on this site who claims to be 100% certain there is no god and who also claims that fetuses have the same right to life that an adult human has.
A fetus, when it can differentiate itself as "I", and experience with its developing senses, is a human being. It is murder of an innocent human being. It is a choice sometimes made to save the life of the mother, and others to end the suffering of a horribly malformed fetus. Everything else is convenience...the convenience to kill.
I have meet pro-lifers who were atheist. I think there is a strong correlation but its not 1-to-1.
One person I knew who was not religious but a theist told me that in her mind it should only be used for psychological or physical help.
I am not saying what I think I am just reporting what I have heard.
I've used the term child instead of fetus in the context that the parent(s) have decided that they want the child. It seems fitting given the intent.
Not necessarily but most often it is used by religious people. I never refer to a fetus as an unborn child as I think it is ridiculous until the fetus is at or near full term.
I also think the pro-life label is misleading as typically pro-life people are not supporters of life once a person is born. I think most pro-choice people support life more than the supposed pro-lifers. Things like prenatal care, healthcare, education, and so on.