I just had the husband of one friend die from Parkinson's. He fell and punctured his bowel (but didn't realize it until it had gotten infected) and was sent to a Catholic hospital. His wife forced them to not resuscitate and withheld his meds. He died (unconscious) over a period of days. You don't know my story but my late partner enrolled in our states Death with Dignity program (I have written and posted here a lot - [sanjuanjournal.com] ).
We need to realize that at some point time is up. We point fingers at the religious because they can't accept death but I see we secularists have the same problem.

@JackPedigo I couldn't agree more . Die w dignity is a dream in USA but also does not help that many humans do not have advance directives in place and when cognition competency is gone will be up to relatives . There is a time to let go , and of course it's a personal decision . I have seen humans living attached to a vent bcz of als . They come to acute care from nursing facilities and homes , bcz infections and heart issues etc . To these people stem cell won't restore a thing . But really hoping will help / prevent for the future victims of such diseases .

@JackPedigo, @Pralina1 I agree that we should all have the right to decide when to go if that is our wish, but the withholding of treatment, because 'others' decide one is too old or worthless, is abhorrent to me! I have stated to all my relatives that if I am, basically 'brain dead', from whatever cause, pull the damn plug. I also think that euthanasia should be a basic human right. But, all of that should be a personal decision, or in some cases a family decision.

Not to mention that they are just going to destroy a lot of those cells anyway, so we might as well put them too good use.

A woman's health and body integrity should come before a pregnancy. It's the first step to stopping the enslavement of women--that and stopping rape.

@Pralina1 Did you note the link (NPR) at the bottom of my letter. It is a shocker and attests to just what you are saying.

@JackPedigo I will in the morning , at hospital tonight . Thank u for sharing it .

@JackPedigo just red it . U are 100% right . But I doubted euthanasia will ever offered in USA . People here are not aloud to die even if their choice . Often the most selfless choice ever btw . I fear what will happen to me without family / next of kin . Does not matter if written instructions . U can be half way dead here and they will not let u go . ? Your late wife must been amazing and selfless . I am sorry for your loss , I can feel how much u missing her sir .

@Pralina1 There is a book out "Final Exit". A movement was started called the Hemlock Society. It was created by the author of "Final Exit", Derek Humphry. Now Hemlock Society is Final Exit [finalexitnetwork.org] Sometime we need to take matters in our own hands.

@JackPedigo thank u sir . This is very useful to me . Thank u .

@Pralina1 You welcome, ma'am.

I like your term "well-being of a cluster of cells".

@DarrelScott and moleclues and atoms and quarks and possibly strings.

@DarrelScott
Yes, but some clusters can feel pain and some can't. We should care for the former in my opinion.

The bible. The bible that is NOT a book, but a con-glom of miriad myth writings over MMM's. Not a book. Not even good creation stories. The ones that came before are cooler.

I often use the bible's life begins at first breath definition when debating (pro-life) theotards.

@GoldenMean I agree totally. The biblical creation story doesn't even make sense if you look at it in terms of the sequences of events. I think the primary popularity of hte bible is that it said that god created man in his own image and placed man above the other animals, which appeals to people's ego, and they get to pretend li9ek they are special.

@NoMagicCookie Glad i am not the only one... Only I don't trypically go looking for debates, if the subject comes up,it is a handy fact to have on hand.

Whoa! I can see making an individual choice, I think that is a basic right, but the attitude that using resources on the elderly is "wasted" I think is misguided. The resources are there, just often distributed unfairly! The "ice floe" concept I find barbaric & unnecessary! I totally disagree with your idea of limiting who benefits, especially that now we get into the slippery slope of eugenics fairly damn quick! Sorry, tho I've found your comments very interesting on other topics, I can't support you here!

apart from the general ugliness of having to make sophie's choice, define elderly. i am 66 and a half. shall i stop taking my metformin for my diabetes because the money medicaid spends on that could be used to save someone younger? how much younger? do you condemn me to death for having been on earth a certain length of time and maybe having acquired some wisdom that can help a bunch of people, maybe someone younger? how about some eugenics while we're at it?

g

I agree with what you are saying.

I'm for true healing but torturous experimentation is cruel. People should definitely have a personal choice toward whatever is done to them post good health. Going away to fast and die, or allowing your family to put you through stuff. Choice.

@phxbillcee It's your choice. But after 25+ years of studying population demographics and environmentalism I place reality over human centered, ideology. Nature has the last word and the way we are heading we will end up like so many other extinct species.

@phxbillcee, @genessa A lengthy article in a recent Atlantic Monthly discussed an optimum life span. The author felt 75 was ideal. After that the average person started having increasing health issues and tending to those needs put a huge burden on society. We do not have a viable health plan and even if we did it is a limited resource. If and when we hit a population like China only the very wealthy would be able to get health service. Again, limited resources usually means those that have also will mean some will not.
Read Jared Diamonds "The World Until Yesterday". Early societies understood the concept of carrying capacity and that sometimes included uncomfortable things like banishment of the elderly and even infanticide.

@JackPedigo they may have understood it in their way. i understand it just perfectly and it is horrific. when you speak of limited resources, do you mean including or excluding golfing trips for the president, tax cuts for the super-rich, the war machine and ceos of businesses that pay their employees minimum wage? before we talk about limited resources, let's reallocate what we have and find out how limited they are or are not. i'd like that before being shuffled off to buffalo, and by the way, if i live to 75 and have some medical problems, and someone things, oh well, she's not having a good time, so kill her, i might just have some objection to that!

g

@JackPedigo Unreal! Malthus & others have proclaimed population doom for years, we're still here! Should we be smarter about population,... surely. But as of now, & for the foreseeable future the resources are there, just unfairly distributed. I'll tell ya' what, I'll get in line right behind you, ok?!? You're 71, seems like you should be ready anytime, old man!

@JackPedigo Also, do you have children? I find that if they carry your genes they might be as callous as you are, so let's take care of them, while we're at it! Your edging to that old 'Final Solution' eugenics outlook anyway, may as well go whole hog! Practice what you preach!

I recently mentioned this fact of excess embryos produced as part of the fertility clinic industry to a pro-life friend. He was totally clueless. He didn't know what to say.

@bingst How surprising! (he said sarcastically!)

@phxbillcee And the fact that we just don't have enough people on the planet. Dying out. Sad.