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Does anyone truly "believe"?

One of my main gripes with organized religion is the hypocrisy of it all. It is quite convenient to cherry pick which words of god apply you and/ or others. Wouldn't someone that truly believes want to live it all without questioning, ignoring, or omitting unpleasantries?

Bunnista 4 Sep 28
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0

I don't rule out "something". I just don't think organized religions have any more of a clue than I do. I feel like the origin of life is way above my ability to comprehend. It's a chicken and egg thing.

The chicken and egg thing may be so very damned stupid, but we've heard it all of our lives. Consider this. What/who was the first disease germ? How/when did the other disease germs get here? I don't think germs showed up one at a time, do you? People and animals most likely did not show up one at a time either. When the bible says they did it is to give mankind more importance than we really have.

@DenoPenno Chicken and egg. Which came first? God created everything. Who created God? It's the same analogy, reworded. Germs, chickens, God, whatever? It's why it's too complicated for me. No way of knowing. All we know is, we think we're here and we think there's a world around us. Went to school with a guy who thought it was possible that we all were a figment of his imagination. Maybe we are. How would we know?

@david75090 Maybe in his mind we are. LOL

Technically, eggs came first. Laid by dinosaurs who grew feathers over many generations to insulate against the cold. Flight came later.

Chicken and Egg - which came first? The answer is simple - it was the chicken. It has to be so because if there was an egg and no chicken to lie on it and keep it warm we would end up with no life being developed in the egg. So the egg first scenario does not work.

@Stig Chickens come from eggs. Either the chicken just materialized or the egg did. At the start of that species.

I really don't think it is beyond your ability or any atheists ability. You might want to read the book Origin by Dan Brown. Life came about by chemical competition before it was even alive.

@david75090 Chickens come from eggs? Really? 🙂

@HumanistSinger And who created the chemicals? It's all a circle. One of many. Which came first? Who knows?

@Stig John Prine said, "rooster laying chickens, chickens laying eggs..."

Where do your chickens come from?

@david75090 If all the chicken laid an egg and then all the chicken died - then all the eggs would would likely not hatch because the were not kept warm enough and even if they did hatch would have no mom to keep then warm and teach them what to eat and stay safe and the species would be gone. If all the chicken laid an egg and all the eggs were lost - the chicken would lay another egg and everything continues as we know it - no big deal except a set of chicken were lost. No which is the more likely scenario to be true and therefore the currently best theory - that the chicken came first. This is logical, reasonable and demonstrable and can be repeated as many times a one wants to. QED.

Wikipedia has the history of evolution of the egg which explains how the first lizards developed to create eggs that could survive out of the water. [en.wikipedia.org]. One could move on to the question what came first - the lizard or the egg that survives in water - but I don't intend to go into that here.

I suppose that anyone who do not think this is the leading theory is welcome to present a better one or retract to the position of "I don't know". All fair. If there is a better theory I would love to hear it.

@Stig Opinion. Anyone/everyone can have one. Nothing definitive. That first lizard. That first egg. Where did it come from? Formed out of air? Created? Who made the air? Who created the creator? Unknowable. No one can offer or prove the definitive explanation.

@david75090 You are right that the big explanation of everything does not exist for any atheist - but the religious people will not agree with that. That does not mean we can't have really good theories about certain elements of existence. Like we believe to know a lot about our own solar system but have to recognize we know very little about the most remote galaxies discovered in the last 20 years.

9

From the late great Carl Sagan, "I don't want to believe, I want to know".

I live by that.

6

Yes, cherry picking is one problem, an even bigger problem is proving to actually not believe the good things they picked either. Examples?

If they truly believe in afterlife and paradise, why do they cry and grieve their loved ones when they die? Shouldn’t they celebrate the fact the wait is finally over and the ascension to heaven? Shouldn’t they have no worries about losing loved ones? ultimately, it’s just a matter of waiting a few years before seeing them again in paradise. Shouldn’t they embrace their own death? Shouldn’t they show no interest in the progress of medicine? Why do they even bother to cure their diseases? How come they don’t look forward to death? How come they all try to live as long as possible? Isn’t this life just an insignificant waiting room?

I know why. Deep down they all know it’s bullshit.

Yes, I have often wondered if the reason theists grieve over death so much is because they secretly fear that they and their loved ones are going to hell.

6

I prefer the Norse gods. They mostly die in Ragnarok. At least there is entertainment.

4

I for one have always struggled with the fact of life that I can't be certain of things and don't have a source of the truth. When studying Epistomology, philosophy and religion is was disheartening to see that you can subjectively cherry pick to optimize your life. That is for me the reverse of finding the firm truth and live with and by it.

No caring father would let his children live in a situation where they don't know where they live, how they came about, how their house works etc.. No region passes the simple human test of being a good father. This is one reason I do not believe in Gods - even though some like the Norse gods have some coolness to them and it's fun to watch the movies.

Stig Level 5 Sep 30, 2018

@Hercules3000 Which then became a powerful tool used by leaders of countries and empires for population behavior control.

@Hercules3000 I started but stopped soon thereafter....

4

It's worse than that. They get so upset about people not pretending to believe because they're embarrassed that they've been lying about believing their whole lives. Almost nobody actually believes.

Religion is the Emperor's New Clothes.

4

Yes, there are people who truly believe; I was one of them. Guilt by indoctrination is one of the evolutionary advantages of ideologies like Islam and Catholicism. Not being able to follow all the impossible tenets of the "faith" requires continual repentance, or death by martyrdom, in order to avoid the eternal agony of Hell. I was such a person (a Catholic) It took four decades for me to become comfortable with my secularism.

Islam indoctrination is worse (more effective) than is Catholic indoctrination, making is today's fastest growing "religion". I have extreme respect for those former followers of "the prophet" who somehow manage to apostatize.

4

The phenomenon you're talking about is a good piece of evidence that religions are an expression of human nature rather than the other way around. People don't follow religions; religions follow human beings (in the big picture). It's not really hypocrisy to believe what you believe, and then associate with the organization that comes closest to those beliefs. My experience on this site has taught me that non-believers are no less varied in their interpretation of atheism/agnosticism. People are just not that monolithic. But I think most, on all sides, are sincere, to the best of their understanding.

skado Level 9 Sep 29, 2018
3

99% of so called Christian believers have zero idea what that would truly mean..the majority Cherry Pick the bible..to suit their own personal agendas

Have you ever been around someone who is studding to be come a preacher, they have a book as large as Danial Webster's largest that is nothing but rebuttal's to address a non believer and turn them around them around!

@bandit321 I actually had an old friend..who was born again and we would debate bible passages..all the time

3

I think belief and faith are both synonymous with gullibility.

3

That's one of the reasons I left the church. I guess I read too much of the Bible and did research and paid attention to the people in the church. It became clear that all of the contradictions added up to a very flawed logic.

So one could say the church wants you to read the headlines only - not the body of the text and even less the fine print?

3

Cognitive dissonance.

3

The nature and scope of belief extends a long way beyond the concept of organized religions. Given that we have more than sixty thousands thoughts a day, it has been said that we harbor all kind of unexamined beliefs about other people, ourselves and the world in general.

3

Can anyone truly believe? I mean without being completely delusional, the bible contradicts itself!

2

A very GOOD question there.
As a wise man, can't actually remember who it was atm, once said, " Religious belief/faith is akin to a Blind Person stumbling around in a darkened room seeking the light switch in the vain hope that he/she will be able to see."
Or, as put forward by Karl Marx, " Religion is the Opiate of the Masses."

I think Marks definition was more pragmatic. But you lost me on the blind looking for the light switch . Unless he was partially blind

@Slava3 Think about the metaphor/analogy I was attempting to put across.
By blind, I meant fully blind and sightless.

2

Thats why it's called a leap of faith.. logic has very little to do with it.

2

In some case, people who truly believes is his/her own prophet. If you count yourself part of Christianity, then it stands to reason you - with the true spiritual connection - sees God for what he is and understands more clearly what he wants than other Christians; whom are confused just like Muslims and Jews.

In the case of hypocrites, there is a simple explanation for maintaining the ruse.
Imagination is a double edged sword. For all it's benefits, it can delude our minds and bodies, much like dreams do when we sleep.
What organized religious followers have realized - same as people who play dungeons and dragons, read fiction and watch movies - is that thinking super-happy thoughts makes you feel better. If you pretend to be someone/something else in a narrative supported by other people, the fantasy feels much more real.

I believe there is a link between narcissism and religious "belief".
The central message in the Abrahamic religions, as far as i understand it; is how special you (the believer) are.
Literally, the purpose of creation is YOU.

Wild beasts groom each other. It serves a practical function but it's also comfort. I believe that is what religion comes down to. Animals comforting each other by stroking their egos, instead of their bodies.
By itself, the addiction to this stimulation can warp the mind; compelling the addicts to defend the source of their buzz against all logic.

Plus, religion has had time to evolve it's game.
Adding sly parts into the doctrine, for example; "people will mock you". Then when sane people inevitably do because what you're saying is completely irrational, somehow, this anticipated overlap of fiction and reality strengthens the delusion. Validates it.

Of course, this is all guesswork

Actually, I do not think that it is all guesswork. I think that there are valid scientific reasons, logical reasons and explanations for the way people act in the religion I think psychology has addressed it well and so have people like Dawkins who understand the religious delusion and the need for reinforcements in that false idea less it fall away from there conscience.

@HumanistSinger It's guesswork for me. I have done no in-dept research nor have any experience with religious beliefs. So I am left with guesswork from casual interactions.

2

drive by an abortion clinic see old men picketing

2

Oh, yes, there are many religious "true believers" who have made absolute beliefs in a religious dogma the defining core of their definition of self and of their entire life.That commitment is so strong that they are able to rationalize questions and discrepancies away easily with illogic and false reasoning.

2

It's almost as if the big bluster of the believers is all there to keep them believing and not to convert you. It's like they say all this stuff because they need reinforcement in order to believe.

2

There are true believers, but the problem with the ambiguity of most (all?) religious dogma is that they are not even internally consistent, and often are self-contradictory. By definition, you cannot follow everything that the religion says because they tell you to do contradictory things.

If anyone followed biblical law, they would be in prison.

2

Atheists can be just as hypocritical as Believers.

I personally can't call myself an atheist but Agnostic seems to fit just fine.

@frisbee212 I normally don't call myself anything, I just don't think there really has to be a name for it.
But if I had to put a lable to it, I would call myself and agnostic atheist.
Atheist, because I don't believe in anything supernatural or any type of diety.
the agnostic part is because I can't prove it either way.

2

It seems that most people create their own idea of what god is and what he/she/it cares about. Coincidentally, their god always agrees with them.

Marz Level 7 Sep 29, 2018
2

I have found that most "believers" are insurance believers that use religion as their bludgeon to repel their fears and insecurities.

1

Sadly they do truly believe because that's the basis of all religion. You can't have an imaginary friend without believing that you do. As for the end result, if the afterlife is supposed to be so great you'd think they'd all be committing suicide to get there as soon as possible.

lerlo Level 8 Oct 7, 2018
1

I do think the are powers outside of our understanding, whether they are gods aliens or some other form of spirit or energy who knows

Big times yes. But it isa deep subject.

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