Why would a virtue be annoying? I'd be very thankful to find a wise virtuous man.

@WarmFluffy Not everyone agrees what is vice and what is virtue, Many consider blind faith a virtue. And I find it very unwise and annoying.

@WarmFluffy A young woman where I work has never had alcohol, never smoked or used any type of drug: facts that she will sanctimoniously throw into random conversation. She speaks less frequently of her virginity, which she also proudly holds at the age of 36: She says Jesus wouldn't want her to have carnal relations out of wedlock. So yeah, I think being too virtuous could be annoying.

@Wendy965 That's horrifying. To be 36 and basically lived a half life. yeesh

@Wendy965 maybe she's just had very bad luck and is hoping friends will help her find a great man to finally marry.

fewer

Thank you

@Squirrel lol have you seen that trump/pence meme? lemme try to find it for you.

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@Squirrel

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I'm thinking of true consequential behavior. For example, lots carnal men hang in theist groups. It typically corresponds to a carnalising diet. When they marry if they do, often there's a divorce. Such things often correspond to other innappropriate behavior. I didn't collect articles so I don't have specific sources and would have to look it up.

@WarmFluffy sorry, are you implying that there is something wrong with sex, or that only men enjoy it? or that their sexual behavior is even geared toward marriage? you don't have to collect articles, but it is helpful to have SOME kind of data to back up what is otherwise either fantasy or casual observation based on small samples. i don't find less carnality here than elsewhere. i really don't.

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@WarmFluffy Would it be possible to find someone here, or plant a mole, into the ashley-madison website that I hear caters to hooking up married folks who want extramarital affairs? I mean, do they have questionnaires similar to other dating sites that might provide an algorithm about members' stated religion? That might provide at least one facet of accurate, measurable data that shows theists are often unconscionable hypocritical idiots.

I googled as I didn't have the original article.

@genessa I'm here, and l couldn't be having any less carnality than l am having now.

@Sticks48 i don't see sex as a vice in and of itself.

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@genessa It was a joke. I don't see sex as a vice at all. As long as folks don"t have sex with children and small barnyard animals, i could care less who people have sex with. As a matter of fact, I don't believe folks are having enough sex.

Vice is something actually consequential not by superficial opinions.

@Sticks48 whoever said sex was a vice?

@WarmFluffy vice is not a matter of opinion? of course it is. there is no such objective thing as vice. it's ALL a matter of opinion, by community agreement sometimes, meaning the law in most cases, other times by religious agreement, sometimes just personal. or are some opinions more superficial than others? are opinions more superficial if they do or don't match yours?

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@genessa I do understand that plenty have different opinions about what vice is. Nevertheless if something isn't truly consequential and wrong I see it as a biased opinion on what vice is. I'm trying to think of a good example, but must get to sleep. For example, dance. Seeing all dance as evil and therefore a vice doesn't seem logical to me. It seems wrong to deny people innocent fun, just because some have dirty minds or try to act like being attractive causes crime. Some theists seem to act like beauty itself is a sin. I enjoy dancing when I find a rare chance. I don't like claiming it's a vice. It's just healthy, fun. I think it's wise not to hang with people that condemn me for innocent fun. Actually, I generally just dance folk or contemporary style and don't wear less than yoga wear or dance really dirty publicly.

@WarmFluffy She did,

Google does wonders.

@Antifred 40 days?! Not possible...

@Antifred that does not sound healthy. and if you lost 40lbs... wow.. how much more do you still have to lose?

It's a repeated social science study. For example there's more divorce, and if you check what folks usually eat when they go out theists usually eat fast food. I went vegan and reversed prediabetes and anemia with an MD who know about science based alternative ways, and plenty have done things like still claim I should eat Church's chicken because it's owned by Christians. I noticed the old fashioned version of my diet is in The Gospel of Peace that some corrupt Catholics who gained power threw out ages ago and some keep thumping around claiming it is fine to eat animals because of altered passages in the Bible. Personally, if I find a way is better for my health, I'm not perfect but make an effort to adopt the new info. For example, the doctor wants me off grains almost 100%. Same for sone animal products on my food sensitivity F list. I be polite around them, but see lots are pretty mixed up about enjoying the benefit of avoiding consequential behavior here and now. It turns out most vegetarians are atheists and most converts to vegetarianism, veganism, raw veganism aren't theists. If I was more public, plenty might say I'm gossiping, get mad and claim I need maiming, life snuffing meds. What happened to thou shall not kill? I'm not trying to ruin anyone's reputation, just be constructive as though the intentions are good, and some nontheists are very into consequential behavior there are plenty of ironies.

@TheMiddleWay so dies this mean you feel breaking up a marriage is a good thing or just an option. Vice is consequential. Breaking up is heartbreaking, expensive for most and hurts children tremendously so I can see how it compares to smoking, bad eating habits, lack work, etc.

@WarmFluffy i have never heard of, much less seen, such studies. it sounds ridiculous to me.

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@TheMiddleWay let me know if this is actually doctoral thesis presentation. I thought it was friendly chat.

Now, that sounds exceptionally clever.

@okiestache I understand what you're saying. I've also heard some sexually liberal atheists speak. I think in part who's included in the polls can skew results. I think the history of polygamy compared to casual sex probably can't be covered as a subject in this light chat here. I'm also not bashing people for their choices of conduct between consenting adults. If an sexually liberal theist lives in a region with many sexually liberal nontheists it can seem like most atheists believe in multiple sex partners at possibly even whim even about sexual exveptional. . Nevertheless, how many nationally and internationally marry, stay married and are happily monogamous? Although some theist groups hardly ever hear of divorce the stats are often ironic. My dad decided not to go to a theist church as a child. He's a pretty good example of ironies. Lots of theists might assume if they knew that, that he used a lot of offensive language, would never really get married, after he did assume he'd never be faithful, would be an alcoholic or drug addict, and would waste most of his money on vanities. None of those things are true about him. He was labelless. I could explain his good logic about that another day. No one is perfect. He rarely used verbal violence and preferred entertainment with his wife about the speed of Public Television BBC shows, Wheel of Fortune, Wild Kingdom or Discovery Specials. He mostly in his freetime read magazins like Physics Today and Scientific American. He usually read fiction books that were science fiction and never ranted about anything but preferred the ones where the main characters if on Earth could have probably been in movies that win theist Dove Awards. He married with the Justice of the Peace and took mother off for her first experience to the Poconos Mountains to make it special. He wasn't interested in being unfaithful and considered pornography a waste of money but more of a silly thing some people waste their money on as it's not their women. He did drink until his doctor when he was after middle aged finally told him that he needed to stop if he wanted to live much longer. During his last years, he did gilt some, but with the Standard American Diet if folks live long enough who doesn't, not many. While gilting sometimes he'd be extra fussy. I'd occasionally be smoothing things out. He lived to 87. In plenty of areas around the world stats show more nontheists that never remain single for life and never divorce. I'm sure studies will improve with time to show the trends more clearly. I didn't turn into a perfect person and am single and hoping to continue to study how to recognize when new acquaintances are not really good for me. At least I opted not to drink or smoke, my taste in entertainment is similar but even more G. I like to keep on finding ways to improve in life and like all my theist and nontheist friends even when we don't agree on everything.

I've heard some theists talk and read some. There's even different definitions of what fornification is. Once, a female abuse victim told me that a woman on staff at her shelter said that she was to blame for being beaten up by a man, because he was her 2nd husband and according to the theist even going out with another man after a divorce was fornification. Hopefully, she's fired by now, but she was a terror there, selling babies and sending off innocent women to be poisoned to death in the guise of treatment for.their insanity. Apparently, she didn't think much of thou shalt not kill, steal, love thy neighbor and felt like things like the story of Job who fell ill, lost his fortune, his wife and his children, and then, recuperated, built another fortune and remarried happily with no children, too, or Rebecca. Oh, well. Atheists can share really odd things about the Bible.

@WarmFluffy It just goes to show how toxic some religious ideas really are. The well from which we all must drink has been poisoned, and only a few of us are truly aware of our condition. But it is in this little awareness where there is hope, that we may yet find the antidote and stand in true liberty.

@rcandlish that makes sense. It's an easy place for some criminal natured people to lurk.

@WarmFluffy A future historian might well conclude that religion is the greatest crime ever against humanity. If that day comes it will be no surprise to find how many criminals have nested in its branches. Just think of the Godfather!

@rcandlish Could it be they're scape goats, I mean the kinder wiser ones. I'm touched when folks want to save my soul. It shows they care about me. Then, things get sometimes awkward when they don't understand what's a superficial oppressive expectation.

I've learned of counter examples.

That seems to reflect most theists are pretty inconsciencious and oblivious to consequences.

@WarmFluffy it is a multi demensional paradigm. Those running the show gain controll over self doubting followers and so benifits the institution. And the victemized followers are medicated by the belonging that following provides. It's a codependency that damages both ends but binds them in spiraling ferver.

Well, I didn't mean for any one to feel obliged to confess consequential behavior. We all have some or we'd be perfect. That's very true, not necessarily. Social science studies always have some limits. I'll go back to the atheists in prison example. Real prison demographics show less prisoners are likely to be atheist. More prisoners are likely to be theist. Generally prison terms are for things like stealing, fraud, and violence and most agree that's not condonable in a free society. Some atheists do commit crimes though. Considering what lots of theists communicate it is rather surprising as if the theists really were a particular way more so wouldn't the prison stats be different with more atheists there?

Vice shouldn't be confused with theist legalism even if some theists do.

Whether or not some theist groups restrict smoking and intoxicants is a different subject.

In the true sense of the word vice refers to things causing real consequences.

The subject itself doesn't put a noose around anyone here so you're totally safe in that way as there is no sort of nontheist congregation to throw you out of.

On whether smoking and drinking or other specific behavior is consequential, maybe it would be better to touch on such a large scope to debate another day on other posts. It's a fun subject anyway. What do you think?

The studies didn't cover exceptions to the rule. I'll go back to the example of criminal behavior. Some other examples might seem too legalistic here without a debate. There are actually less atheists in prison. Compared to the theist population atheists commit less crimes. Now, if you're writing from Maximum Security what should I say, ? Some times I've heard theists talk about those that do not attend and thought how rude as though I'm not a perfect person either, it really didn't describe me. It's not like I curse like a sailor, barhop, shoplift, hack computers, Google to become a terrorist, etc. There's also a big difference between little bad habits, and definitely consequential behavior. Once I read an analysis and it was indicated since we know irreversible damage is irreversible, that's stronger than most who want to live by whim and wishful thinking. There are some theists that seem pretty wise about behavior, too. It's just an ironic sort of repeated study. Now, some have created other polls with different results, but it seems that there was a bias like nlt ensuring a big true cross section and based on what? Lots can say there's a bunch of great people in a group where they participate. Nevertheless what about actual facts?

@okiestache Thank you. That was very helpful and added a lot to the conversation.

Some demographic social science studies, I didn't get a link. I'll try to give one example that I kniw of off hand. Not much time for other examples. Let's take commiting crime for example. There are not as many atheists in prison. Prisoners are more likely to be theist, spanked, omnivore, neglected as children, are a few typical curious things.

If I might challenge that, I think you can have an extremely strict moral code, have plenty of empathy and self-awareness and still have plenty of vices. I would cite myself as an example. My drinking/smoking/sexing isn't hurting anyone but myself. I don't smoke in front of people who are bothered by it, I don't drink and drive or act irresponsibly and I use proper protection and get tested for STD's regularly. I just don't see any of my vices as immoral.

Oh, and I eat a whole lot of unhealthy crap.

@klang72 it's possible that my viewpoint is partly what's shifted about where to draw the line.

@JazznBlues I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

I understand. Nevertheless, some comparison studies show things like less atheists in prison, less atheists with domestic troubles, and more atheists with an optimized well being plan. They're also more likely to be successful professionally. It doesn't mean all studies but most that I and others have seen. It doesn't mean all atheists. I've learned of some pretty confused atheists. One typical confusion is some that think consequential behavior is OK and funner, because there is no literal hell. Most atheist families teach their children that, there's no escaping consequences or increased risk of consequences of some actions. Unfortunately, most theist children don't get that. It's like they don't really fear hell or consequences. It's wise to have some fear of consequences.

I suppose even drinking too much water could kill people within a day. It's actually happened. I'm not sure how anyone could feel thirsty enough if not forced or terribly misled to believe they should. The marijuana debate is a pretty big theme. Maybe that could be tsckled another day. In the meantime lots of people selling recreational intoxicants are very happy and pleased that lots if people believe their goods are the thing to even if they're sure it's a vice.

Very true, predators like to go where they're unsuspected and there's opportunity. Lots are interpreting "spare the rod spoil the child" as spankings. It's supposed to be age appropriate interactive conversation. No wonder they can't figure out how sick child molestation is. One nun wrote in its defense claiming sometimes there a meaningful relationships. Could it be stds is a new word for her?

Makes a lot of sense.I've been learning a lot about the affects of the Standard American Diet, my health has improved but I do have plenty of roll models that inspire me to try to improve more as though I love my new diet, all the details can be confusing at times.

Name calling like assuming I'm holier than thou is rude and uncalled for. I just have my hair up in a bun for work. I'm not Victorian prude. I'm also not dictating that there are no exceptions just sharing like anyone info I've found. It would be better to summarize what you want me to learn from any book as I am already saturated with studies and things to read. There are always exceptions. Exceptions don't define anything just limit concepts. Simplified: People who eat lots of meat are truly often more likely to go for irresponsible behavior in that way. Prison studies world wide have reflected the same thing. Personally after I learned of maximum security reform success if a man really didn't want to eat in a way more conducive to optimal well being and associated with noncriminal behavior, I would play it safe and if I needed to be in a group activity keep things decidedly forever platonic. I don't want one that turns into a Mr. Hyde one day.

@TheMiddleWay that seems to be a different study