I made the acquaintance of a USS Liberty survivor. He wrote the book, "Assault on the Liberty." Israel is rarely discussed in anything other than a one-sided manner, favoring the Israelis.

@WilliamCharles I am very familiar with the USS Liberty incident. They were flying a large American flag and the strafing jets and the gunboat were well within range to see that flag. The U.S. government seemed to want to downplay the incident.

Read the part about Evan Toni.

[counterpunch.org]

Agreed. The penalty for speaking out agaist Israeli oppression is generally swift and severe for those daring it.

Exactly. Jews persecute the Palestinian civils just like the Jews were persecuted for centuries in Europe and Russia. Evidently, the Jewish Zionists did not learn compassion from those experiences.

"The trick of declaring war against the armed resistance and then attacking the resisters’ unarmed kin as well as the sur­rounding population with the most gruesome products of Death-Science; this trick is not new. American Pioneers were pioneers in this too; they made it standard practice to declare war on indigenous warriors and then to murder and burn villages with only women and children in them. This is already modern war, what we know as war against civilian populations; it has also been called, more candidly, mass murder or genocide.

Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised that the perpetrators of a Pogrom portray themselves as the victims, in the present case as victims of the Holocaust.

Herman Melville noticed over a century ago, in his analysis of the metaphysics of Indian-hating, that those who made a full-time profession of hunting and murdering indigenous people of this continent always made themselves appear, even in their own eyes, as the victims of manhunts.

The use the Nazis made of the International Jewish Conspiracy is better known: during all the years of atrocities defying belief, the Nazis considered themselves the victimized.

It’s as if the experience of being a victim gave exemption from human solidarity, as if it gave special powers, as if it gave a license to kill."

Fredy Perlman from his essay, “Anti-Semitism and the Beirut Pogrom”

"Thoughts" as in your view. I'm curious as to whether others think the essentially pro-Israel view is warranted. Stating my own view was just that.

@WilliamCharles please don't insult my intelligence. Your cartoon and the use of the word "apartheid" made it quite clear the goal of your post.

Thank you for your first-hand account.

It was not his policy. that belongs to Clinton. It is just that every six months successive presidents have postponed it because it would disturb the peace process. Trump has just said " what peace process ".

@273kelvin - True. The US government have been lackeys of the Zionists for some time, I'm afraid.

@WilliamCharles Okay let me try and explain myself. Firstly I am not Jewish. However my daughter is because her mum is. Consequently I can see things from both perspectives. There is a saying that youre not paranoid if everyone IS out to get you. The history of the Jews is such that everywhere they have made a home (USA excepted but who knows) they have been driven out and persecuted. England,Spain,France, Istanbul, Morocco, Tunisia, Russia, Austria, Germany and Poland sorry if I have missed any out but you get the point. A jew of any persuasion atheist or not would have to be an idiot not to be a zionist. (They did not ask you if you believed in god or not when they loaded up the cattle trucks and put a tattoo on your wrist). Israel was born out of the holocaust and it is no accident that their flag is the same colours as the camp uniforms. I visited there in 95, two encounters stuck me. One was a lady who had three sons all serving in the military. Her wish for peace was as pure and heartfelt as any mothers would be in that situation. The second was my girlfriends mum who unbidden answered the question " why does did she choose to live there? ...Its the only place in the world where Im not a bloody Jew " . No small wonder that they do not look on criticism of Israel with the same eyes as others and often view it as anti-semitic especially as all its neighbors are far far worse.

@273kelvin - A dear friend and former coworker is a Russian Jew who serves in the IDF Reserves (intel). I've recommended a book or two for her, but otherwise it's not a subject we discuss much. I came to my current way of thinking based largely on the writing of many principled Jewish voices.

I've seen the ugliness and obfuscation against those speaking the truth about Israel's oppression against Palestinians first hand. "Breaking the Silence" are IDF soldiers who speak out. Norman Finkelstein is a courageous scholar who speaks out. There are many others.

This is what we are up against, but the smears are not working like they used to.

[washingtonsblog.com]

The right of return for starters. Palestinians who were run off their land cannot go back, but a Jew from anywhere in the world has a right, according to Israel, to emigrate there. I consider the one state solution justice (however feasable). One person, one vote tends to be the model for democracy elsewhere, but not in Israel. Israel claims to not be an occupational force, but controls their borders, coastline, and airspace.

A start would be to give the land back that the Jews have illeagaly occupied since acquiring it during a war. Arab governments attacked Israel, but the land was owned by civilian Palestinians, not a hostile government.

Do you feel the prolonged detention (and torture - they're freezing her in her cell) of the minor Ahed Tamini for the slapping of an Israeli soldier raiding her home, is "justice?"

@WilliamCharles not at all! Any person held for such a small reason should be assisted immediately! I fear this is not the case here.

I have not followed the problems in the mid-east closely (much the same as I didnt closely follow the issues that have plagued Ireland, South Africa, Rwanda, Germany, Korea,... I could keep going) but I am aware of some, I am sure would only be a small fraction, of the injustices done in that area of the world.

From your initial question it appeared you had thought more on the Israel - Palestinian topic than I had so I wondered what you thought the correct solution was. Thank you for the initial response.

Next question: what do you believe has to be offered to the hardline opponents of the single state option to make it an option they would support?

@Donna_I "what has to be offered for a single state solution....?" An option for birth control. The Arabics will over populate Israel in the future. Unless this ? is address the Judaics are doomed. Again.

@Countrywoman interesting thought. Not a pleasant one but an insite, for me anyway, into why this has gone on as long as it has.

Again, it's just my perception. Thank you for weighing in.

Regarding neutrality -

For the record, the US is already taking sides as we fund a great deal of the Israeli abuse of Palestinians. We are in no way neutral mediators on the issue.

Armed Jews against unarmed Arab civilians...gosh, I wonder who will prevail? Jewish settlers sneaking over into Arab villages at night to burn the olive orchards and grape vineyards...supported by the Jewish army. Yup! They can work it out for themselves.

@WilliamCharles I think both sides are fucked up. Neither has the "moral high ground". I can't choose one as being any better than the other. I'm not neutral, I just think they both suck.

@WilliamCharles I am well aware of the US government's position. I don't agree with many of the positions that the US government takes on a great number of things.

Quite convenient really. A bit like the Conquistadors murdering the Incas to convert them to a religion whose big principal is "Thou Shalt not Kill". Mind you, Israelis who consider themselves to be the chosen people have ignored their virtual genocide, apparently under the approval of their special god.

@BanjoTango If your looking for genocide then look at Syria or Yemen. Oops sorry they`re our bombs.

@273kelvin -

"The Auschwitz Logic

So this is the Auschwitz logic in a nutshell. Ramallah is not Auschwitz. Israel is not the Third Reich. We have no death-camps and we haven't massacred one third of the Palestinian population in gas chambers. Therefore, everything we do is quite all right. We may fill the occupied territories with tear gas and blood, we may kill and injure and torture and blackmail and dispossess, we may surround millions by electric fences and tanks in tiny enclaves, we may hold them under siege and daily bombing, we may make pregnant women walk to hospitals, and we shoot ambulances too, don't we. But as long as we fall even an inch short of the atrocities of Nazi Germany, it's all fine and good, and don't you dare make the comparison.

People sometimes say that the Better is the greatest foe of the Good. Israel is now demonstrating how the Greater Evil is Evil's best friend.

And many thanks to Adolf Hitler, for setting such insurmountable standards."

~ Ran HaCohen

From: [antiwar.com]

@WilliamCharles" The UN describes the situation in Yemen as "the worst man-made humanitarian crisis" in the world, with the ongoing conflict making an already dire situation worse. " Try and organize a boycott of Saudi? Stand outside Lockheed with a placard saying
" Stop making planes for murderers " and see how far you get. Not far when it comes down to jobs
[aljazeera.com]

@273kelvin - Those crimes do not excuse Israel's. As an American, I would at least ask Israelis to learn to murder on their own dime (might even make them stop).

@WilliamCharles If you think that the US of A is going to ditch its only non-islamic friend near all that oil, then dream on

@273kelvin

@WilliamCharles Before Israel the USA could rely on its own oil reserves. It did not invade other countries.Odd that you should quote a jesuit though.

@273kelvin - We actually had a deal with the Saudis from around WWII but it started to sour as we propped up (The future state of) Israel. Not odd to quote a Jesuit in the least. Wisdom comes from people of all stripes.

[articles.latimes.com]

The Israelis won it fair and square during the 6 Day War & gave back the Sinai as Egypt signed a peace treaty. Unprovocated attack was crushed in 6 days. Sort of lijke our Bay of Pigs invasion. Idiots!

@Countrywoman - Territory by conquest is a war crime. Something determined after the many such crimes in WWII. It's ironic that in this piece, there is no mention of Israel whatsoever.

[britannica.com]

[latimes.com]

Desmond Tutu thought so, and he should know.

@WilliamCharles Okay your right under that definition but also under that definition is ; Morocco, Tunisia , Libya, Egypt, Jordan,Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran and if it ever happens the state of Palestine All of which had Jewish communities which were appropriated and offer no right of return. In the case of a Palestinian state no right of entry either. Okay I do not say that all is well in the state of Israel far from it but let us look a the beam in our own eye for a moment. Since the invasion of Iraq there have been 500,000 deaths directly as a result, yes half a million. Which the USA and My govt are responsible for. Whilst Jewish claims to the land may be tenuous at best, they tend to look like cast iron contracts compared WOMD. Not only that but we (the US and UK govts) continue butt kiss Saudi Arabia. (that bastion of democracy). That state sponsors terrorism and is bombarding Yemen with weapons we quite happily sell them as I type this. And yes it was going on whilst Obama was in charge too. Israel has been on a war footing for decades now. In any situation like that there will inevitably be attosities on both sides. Hawks will be more popular than doves on both sides. I ask you to imagine this. Just how racist and gung ho would the US be if rockets were regularly being fired from Mexico into Texas. Add to this the avowed aim of the protagonists being the total destruction of the USA with active support of many south/latin american govts. If your answer is " Oh no we would not be as bad " then I suggest you try and book a flight to Cuba and see how far you get. (Guantanamo bay does not count).

@WilliamCharles There are rumors that Mandala was trained by mossad.

@273kelvin - There are rumors that Mossad has their fingers in a lot of subversive sh*t.

Those IDF " Brownshirts " are operating medical clinics on the Syria border. Treating wounded civilians and running refugee camps. What is the US doing? Oh yeah bombs.

How do I delete my "like"?

@273kelvin our USA medical corps does great work globally but not inside Gaza or the West Bank what is left of it

It's not so much a conclusion as a personal observation. I qualified it by saying "a lot" (that I've noticed) and "tend to side." I'm new to this site so I make no statement re: agnostics -dot- com. The sites I'm talking about generally treat Islam as the greatest danger facing humanity (Sam Harris often paints such a picture), while seeming to disregard the acts currently being committed by other tribal groups. The death toll by warfare waged by predominantly Christian nations is pretty high, whether directly or by their proxies.

Israel definitely gets a pass from Christian Zionists, and I would hazard a guess that atheists think of Israel as more familiar with regards to being secular and "Western." This, in my opinion, causes them to generally turn a blind eye to much of their barbarity (use of white phosphorus on civilians for example - a war crime), and treat the Arab population as irrational terrorist fanatics. It should be noted that international law allows for a population to resist invaders by force.

So, no trolling at all.

This is my viewpoint on people in general under my nom de plume.

"People are =/= to their religion.

I am most definitely an infidel in that I have no belief in any god or gods. A person’s individual godview is the most basic right possible that a human being can have. I personally reject Islam, Judaism, and Christianity (among others)…but do not reject Muslims, Jews, and Christians. A person’s religion and religious culture are most predictably based on their family of origin, where they were born (geography), and when they were born (I.e. no Xians pre-Christ).

I stand with all people on the planet willing to work together as a species to live peacefully with each other and our environment. That does not change regardless of the actions of some who think their ‘godview’ justifies any number of horrible acts.

I reject those who use such acts to demonize people who are damned for nothing more than ‘guilt by association.’"

~ LanceThruster

I see christianity as a definite negative on American society, now, & see a number of them as working towards a xtian theocracy in the future. I also see islam in total as a worldwide threat, even the moderates, as they give cover to the extremists, just as moderate xtians do to the extreme of their religion. I see religion, period, as the biggest problem, hence the reason I consider myself an anti-theist. I do happen to agree with much that Hitchens brought up in "god is not Great", & much of what Harris has said about the dangers of Islam. It makes no sense to ignore these very real problems in the name of "liberalism". I also agree that Israel has committed, & is still committing, many human-rights violations, both in country & in Palestine. Just like we have India/Pakistan, Myanmar & their muslim population, the former Yugoslavian areas (Bosnia, etc.), Ireland, the list goes on. Religion is not the only reason for these conflicts, but it eggs them on & gives them cover & excuse. Religion poisons everything!

Could you expand on that? I'd like to understand. It seems to be the general description of the New Atheist is a militant antitheism. I don't have a problem with that as all ideas need to be able to stand up to scrutiny.

It used to be that the only ones who declared themselves to be Atheists were hardcore Atheists. Now, those that are only marginally Atheistic have joined ranks with us, but they have brought religious elements (atheistic churches, "prayer" sessions) with them. I quite suspect these new atheists may turn back to religion if it becomes less convenient to be an Atheist. It is their right.

I'm just happy if they lose the air of certainty most theists have. I've always said if there's something more, I'll find out soon enough.

Wow! That's incredible.

@WilliamCharles It is Haifa, Israel and you have arab christians living in the arab ghetto. On the other side of the coin in the village of Malia, island of Crete. I met one night a former Israel soldier, the 2 girlfriends were touring the island in their Triumph bikes. We stayed in this hotel and in the morning went to breakfast... we didn't noticed that night the hotel catered to germans, every sign was in english, greek and german. We got a table in the middle, her being surrounded by germans... who happen to be very loud by nature and happy to be on holidays. She couldn't handle their presence. We didn't finish breakfast. And maybe it was her looks... she was bald headed... that is how I met her.. complimenting her hair stylist... to them germans she will had reminded them a jewish from a camp and maybe was too much. So on those in Israel it runs deep. The experience you can get in this world is incredible brother. But you got to live it to feel alive brother.

The Talmud has some pretty questionable doctrines as well. So does the bible. People advance somewhat beyond their sacred texts.

[counterpunch.org]

Many good points about that claim here.