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Is there anyone here that values the teachings of the bible, but rejects it's supernatural elements?

I believe in objective ethics, and a lot of good ethics overlaps with biblical values. Reason tells me that religious communities have a lot of successful values we can adopt. But it's the dogma and reliance on faith that gets me sad about religious communities.

Wrain62 4 Oct 30
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2

I value any good point made regardless from where that point comes, and the bible is no exception to that rule for me.

My Muslim friend said to me that without god we would have no morals. We would be savages, raping and murdering our way through life. So if you accept that (insert religion here) excusively teaches a particular moral then you empower the rest of the religion too and that is probably dangerous. I don’t believe in cherry picking

@Nardi I'm seriously creeped out by theists who feel they would rape, murder and rob folks if they thought there was no God. Wtf is wrong with those people? Like, maybe don't do those things because they harm others? Fucking degenerates if you ask me.

@Nardi You might then ask your friend to explain the Pakistani grooming gangs in Telford, Rotherham etc? Apparently they were all devout brothers who the message of moral behaviour failed reach despite religion in abundance.

@LenHazell53 He would just say they are not muslims. It would only be a problem if the judicial system sanctified their actions because of the religion. Which it didn't. And i don't see any muslim protests demanding they be released.

@Nardi So, we have to make-up a god and pretend he is speaking to us, and pretend we are listening to him, when all along, we are the ones deciding what is right and what is wrong and implementing rules of our own behavior?

@Nardi

"i don't see any Muslim protests demanding they be released." conversely we did not see any Muslims shopping their perverted brothers to the police either, did we?

So in the end that answer is just a variation on the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy, which does not address the contention at all.

Contention: Religion gives you morals
Counter: Here is proof religious people behaving in an immoral manner
Counter contention: If said people behave in an immoral manner they cannot be religious as religion gives you morals.

Circular reasoning, self supporting lie.

It is reminiscent of the the old theological excuse for war

The Bible says though shalt not kill, however, you may kill and god will forgive you afterward if it is politically or religiously expedient.

@LenHazell53 I agree. Not trying to defend any religion.

There may be some good things in the bible, but so what? There are good thing every where I have ever looked. I do not do something and then search to see if what I do, lines up with the bible. That would be a waste of time for me. I read the bible because it makes it easier for me to communicate on the same level with most Christians, and I end up knowing more about what their bible says than what they know about it.

@Nardi bio genetics--space
travel;pleasing gawd is not
a human priority.Saving a
species should be...human species?️

13

You assume that there are "the teachings of the bible". But the book contradicts itself numerous times and then there are multiple interpretations. By ignoring the supernatural you are cherry picking and when you choose which part you like you add another layer of cherry picking. Sorry but this approach seems worthless to me. You already have a moral compass. You already know what you think is morally correct. In the bible you will find nothing new. There are a lot of better books to get inspired by that don't also condone murder, rape, genocide, slavery ect. ect.

Dietl Level 7 Oct 30, 2018

That about sums it up.

@TheMiddleWay
You don't seem to know what cherry picking is. Your examples of learned things are not necessarily cherry picking. It is about ignoring certain aspects of a thing in order to still believe in the value of that thing. In this case it is about remaining to see the bible as a moral authority only by ignoring certain parts.
It's a subtle difference, I know, but your comments misses the point of what I was trying to say. Choosing to pick what you like from the bible is not a bad thing but then you have to be aware what the source of your morality is. In this case it is you, not the bible.

9

I think you've got it backwards, good ethics existed long before the bible

@TheMiddleWay i agree but your post addressed good ethics not bad. additionally your opening statement seemed to present the bible as the source of good ethics. if i misunderstood, i apologize.

@TheMiddleWay oops.....just realized you were not the original poster. replace "your post" with the OPs post and "your opening statement" with the OPs opening statement and i take back my apology 😉

8

That which is good in the bible is not original, and that which is original is most certainly not good.

So NO.

Well stated.

8

I don't value or respect the teachings of the Bible. It's necessary to cherry pick the bits that are ethically sound, which means we're already applying our own standards of morality to the text to distance ourselves from the teachings about killing disobedient children, adulterers, homosexuals, workers on the Sabbath, etc., the teachings that women could have no authority over men and shall not teach men, the tacit approval of slavery, the treatment of women as property, and on and on. But what about "turn the other cheek" and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone," I hear someone ask. Ah, that's where the cherry picking begins. Jesus says some peaceful things, but even within the Gospel there's a difference in tone and message depending on where you're reading. Jesus also says that he hasn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it, that he has come bearing a sword rather than an olive branch, that he's here to turn parent against child, sibling against sibling, and neighbor against neighbor, that you should leave your family, sell your belongings, and give no thought to the future because the end times are upon us. You can read into Christian scripture almost anything, because it says almost everything. This is why liberals think of Jesus as a hippy who gives away free healthcare and cares about poor people and conservatives see him as a capitalist who says if you don't work you don't eat. It's the reason the KKK thinks Jesus supports them in their hate. As much as I dislike the Westboro Baptist Church, everything they stand for is in the Bible and can be fully justified by scripture; they're living their faith. And I haven't even gotten to the motivations of Paul and others who used the early Christian movement to their advantage, twisting it for social influence to bring about political change in ways that may or may not have been worthy at the time but have no bearing today. So, no, I don't value the teachings of the Bible. Whatever areas of overlap exist is irrelevant and when people identify with one passage that sounds reasonable they're more likely to accept the more questionable teachings of that anthology text. It's better, I think, to ignore the teachings of the Bible (but not be ignorant of them) and use secular ethics to guide our lives.

8

"The teachings of the Babble"... not so much........do you mean sacrificing your only child? Pimping out your wife for grazing land? Sleeping with your daughters after your wife gets turned into a pillar of salt? How about offering your daughter to a raging mob? Worshipping a gawd who kills off your entire family, gives you dire physical problems, and reduces you to poverty...but then "replaces" all of it.
Or, on a bigger scale, burning & pillaging & raping/murdering entire countries because your gawd told you it was yours? (Oh, wait.........)

@Donotbelieve ta for the reminder!

8

If you can't tell the difference from right and wrong,
you don't lack religion, you lack empathy.

No need for an ancient book to tell you that.

@VictoriaNotes ok

7

Why does it always have to be the bible. There are other early writings that can have just as much (or even more) positive teachings. For instance Greek writings as the Iliad and Odyssey.
Also the Bible(s) (there are more than one version) has gone through a lot of transformations over the Millennia and every age put it's own values on the book. Right now the whole idea of Christian dogma is being upended to "the ends justify the means." Not a good example of ethics.

See my comment here and link and statement refered to therein. Zackly.

7

I used to think that the Bible had a positive message but then I really started looking at what was in the Bible and it is mostly evil. People who haven't read the Bible but just listen to what others say about it can be easily fooled.

7

What a colossal waste of time..... What's the value in trying to find meaning in obscure and cryptic passages of a specific place and time completely out of our own context?

@TheMiddleWay Well, I did post my comment as an open question without even thinking that will invite for answers. Totally my bad. That wasn't the intention. One last comment though. Anyone is free to use their time as they see fit and they can find meaning on anything of their choosing. I am just saying I wouldn't spend my time on any bible reading at all.

6

I particularly like the part where it's okay to beat your slave as long as that slave doesn't die, but the part where the greatest of Israel's kings orders a soldier to his death in order to bang his wife is interesting too.

There are so many good morality lessons....

JimG Level 8 Oct 30, 2018
6

I could reject Harry Potter's supernatural elements and still get more from the series than I could from the Bible

5

Only the kind teachings of the Bible. mostly seen in the New Testament. I am all for the don't hit people in the head with a big stick, forgiveness, judge not lest you be judged, charity, love the sinner, hate the sin and love thy neighbor. These are things one can learn from parents. However, the Bible was the most violent book I have ever read. I read it for Western Civilization when I was in getting my undergrad.

5

Certainly! Most, if not all fundamental religious handbooks are also easily described as "handbooks for having a peaceful society". It was the misuse of these teaching for control by leaders and zealots that bastardized the underlying good life lesson therein. Now the mumbo-jumbo parts...that's just pinache and artistic license.

5

Thou shall not kill, Thou shall not commit adultery. To me, these are common sense. God made these laws and he himself broke them, so "F" the bible

Thank you.

5

The best principles (obviously my opinion) apply universally and aren't differentiated by whether one is male or female. The 'Ten Commandments' for example, embody some valid moral principles, all of which are instinctual and self-regulating anyway. Commandments are directed at men and as though men are natural human monitors.

I believe that all of our 'social ills' are directly or indirectly rooted in the advent of male domination and exclusivity in leadership about 6,000 years ago. The supernatural elements of Biblical 'teachings' are less damaging than the rules of conduct for males and societies propagated by patriarch's claiming supernatural bases.

5

The general teachings of the bible dealing with basic human behavior in terms of ethics and some of the morals are things that all peoples of the world have known and to one extent or another have adhered to from sometime before we left the African savanna. There is nothing particularly unique about what is spelled out in the bible and what was delineated in the Code of Hammurabi. Even the 'Golden Rule' is not original. So, it makes no difference where one picks up their generally accepted values/morals/ethics as long as they are picked up and implemented. There is equally no reason whatsoever to refer to them as biblical. They are human and they have been developed over the entire time we have been evolving. Something else to consider: We continue to evolve and our values/morals/ethics are subject to change as we do so.

@TheMiddleWay -- I didn't say the bible has no value. Hell, I didn't even allude to it. I also did not say anything at all about the requisite for being valuable was originality. I said that it makes no difference where one gets their 'generally accepted' morals, values, ethics, etc. as long as they have them and put them into practice. There is nothing unique about them. They are human values established through deep time, and they are fluid, subject to continued change and refinement.

I once reduced the bible to its actually applicable philosophies of life and wound up with 3 pages of double-spaced, typewritten material and I'm sure I could have trimmed it down even further. I know this is cliche, but this sentence actually sums it up: Don't be a dick.

5

Yes, it's all in the interpretation. As a U.U we believe there is much to learn from the Bible. I definitely don't believe it is infallible, but it is a very interesting piece of literature that can be interpreted in a very Progressive Way.

5

There’s nothing original in that book ?

Nardi Level 7 Oct 30, 2018

@TheMiddleWay It's actually ridiculous to say that however if a book claims to be the truth and is then found out to be a fraud then yes its worthless or worse still..dangerous.

5

There is one all important teaching you can get from the bible, if not find in the bible, and that is.
Don't base your whole life on just one book, if you do read more than one book make sure they are not all derived from one book, and if you can only read one book try to find a better one.

...yes- drinking the coolAID
does get folks dead⚠️

@BBJong Wow thanks! You just taught me an Americanism (British) I did not know. Coolaid: I will remember that one.

5

Similar to Confucius and his anelects, the old testament likely codified certain practices in ancient society that were widespread in acceptance(for whatever reason)and contributed to societal stabilization.
The new testament, was an attempt to reconcile a modern day teacher(Jesus) to these Torah stories, in the process to establish a new church.
Today we live in a post-christian world. While our laws and mores are based on Christian values, very few actually believe the underpinning beliefs.

...well put

4

I've read much of the bible, and although I reject the supernatural aspects, I've found some of the teachings of Jesus to be reasonable and actually supportive of the Humanist philosophy...boils down to "Don't be an ass." I helped my daughter through a suicidal time with it - she was raised Catholic thanks to my ex, and thought god hated her because she's lesbian. I talked to her using Jesus as the base...e.g. if he was around today, he'd support the LGBT community, as he always sought out those marginalized by mainstream society.

4

There are universal ethics that have squat to do with the bible. No indiscriminate killing, etc. The other nitpicky crap in the bible is mostly used for evil. The lessons of the bible include being pro-rape, pro-slavery, pro-genocide, and generally just a reflection of some of the worst ideas floating around the mediterranean a few thousand years ago.

...I.agree,some of the "good examples"were
of their time and needed constant updating..
The church states INFALLIBILITY in all
Bible text.(Catholic).
Yet principles that benefit humanity
need independent/consistent support and
updating- I found the churches+tRump
(All religions zealots) going backward
for years===to humanities determent...

4

The bible isn't the standard, it's a collection of stories. I no more value 'teachings ' in the bible than I do from a Harry Potter novel.

I also take issue with the notion that we can take values from religious communities, they take values from the good aspects of humanity.

Harry Potter is where all the good life lessons live.

4

A pastor on the radio yesterday (1A) stated that there are 270 separate bible passages that endorse slavery. No thank you. I will pass on the whole shebang.

4

Sure, there’s some good stuff in there. Don’t kill, don’t steal, be humble and nice to people. That’s good stuff for the most part.

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