Religions vs Cult
What is the distinction?
1
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.I did a bit of reading on cults since I seem to have had a bit of an affinity for controlling groups. Steven Hassan and others have said that there are a number of characteristics of cults. A controlling cult does not need to posses all of these characteristics but rather just a combinaton of 3 or 4 of them minimum. My interpretation is that each characteristic a group has is one greater degree of being cult-like the groip is. So an organization that has only 1 characteristic is probably OK for the most part but those that have 4, 5, or 6 are best to stay away from.
RussRAB
Level 8
Oct 31, 2018
1
Can you name these characteristics in one word each?
@Ungod - My apologies. It's been a long time since I looked them over, and when I went to find them online, it appears the list has been greatly expanded (like 101 characteristics). Steven Hassan's site appears to be under the name 'Freedom of Mind Resource Center'. Rick Ross is anogher cult expert who has a recent article listing 10 characteristics. I know you asked for a 1word each list, but this is about the best I'm able to do. The article isn't long and the list is brief designated with bullet points.
[theguardian.com]
@RussRAB
That’s my point!
I was honestly asking if you could do something like that, or narrow the ‘cult’ definition down to something reasonable, but 101 characteristics!?!
That also sounds like a convenient catchy number, like 10 commandments!!
Can no one see how ridiculous and meaningless that ultimately is?!?
Cult is just the word religionists use to discredit another faith!
If there are specific issues, they should be addressed individually!!
@Ungod - Like most terms, this one has several meanings and this one ranges from the pejorative as you mention of one religion disparaging another to the description of controlling and abusive groups. Cults under this latter definition are what Steven Hassan and Rick Ross deal with. Although the definition does tend to be fluid depending on individual experience, the definitions offerred are at least an attempt to quantify the characteristics of dangerous organizations. Having said that, I agree that 101 characteristics to too many and become excessive in trying get a sense of what make a dangerous and controlling cult.
I don't know if you are still interested, but the characteristics from Rick Ross's list are as follows. These aare from the article linked in the previous comment.
- Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability
- No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
- No meaningful financial
- Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
- no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
- Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
- There are records, books, news articles, or broadcast reports that document the abuses of the group/leader.
- Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
- The group/leader is always right.
10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
Cults under this definition are not exclusively religious. Amway is a marketing cult, and several political cults have been discussed by various individuals. Michael Shermer described Ayn Rand's Objectivism as the unlikeliest cult to have developed in his book "Why People Believe Wierd Things."
@RussRAB
Seems like in each of those cases, “pejorative” seems like a good working part of the definition!
If you want to say Amway is a cult, then yes anything can be a cult!
Apple computers and OS is a cult by that definition!
Clothing can be a cult! It seems so broad as to be meaningless to me!
I have no idea what #3 is referring to.
But I find it hard to believe any “cult” could fulfill ALL of these characteristics, so the best I can say about them, as a definition, is who/what determines how many of what each cult/religion has to apply to define each as either!
Surely you can see this is all a judgement call at best!!
I would DEFINITELY call Catholicism a cult.
And I don’t think so, but if ANYTHING is a cult, it seems TRUMPISM is definitely one!!
@RussRAB
Man!
I look at just those 10 alone and honestly - Catholicism fits quite well!!
To specify a few:
4.They fervently believe X is coming back, with a rapture, judgment and world destruction!
8. Followers definitely believe they can never be “good enough”, just forgiven!
9/10. The Pope is the top unquestioned leader, the sole and final determining source of godly truth and validation.
I could easily go on...
!!
@Ungod - What is missing from #3 is "disclosure". No meaningful financial disclosure. My bad.
A damgerous or controling cult doesn't have to have every one of tbese characteriztics, just 3 or 4 from the list and they may be over that line. I prefer to view it as the more characteristics they have, the worse of an organization they are.
So who or what determines what charactericistics have been met and which ones apply?
Water is defined as 2 molecules of H with 1 molecule of O, chemically bonded together, existing in a liquid state between 0 and 100 degrees Celsius.
No one disputes this.
I’d like somewhere near that as a defining characteristic of ‘cult’.
I realize ‘cult’ is not so easily defined and determined, but I am looking for a meaningful, useful and well determined definition. And that words have a more fluid definition of USAGE - that words don’t usually have such intrinsic unfaltering definition. USAGE referring to how a people commonly use words.
My point is, there is no such practical definition for ‘cult’. It has become such a whimsical, pejorative term of limitiless application that there is just no useful definition people can agree upon, except to mention a group another people find objectionable!
If the founder is dead, then it’s a religion. If the founder is alive, then it’s a cult.
indirect76
Level 7
Oct 30, 2018
3
None. When someone makes up a new religion it starts off as a mythology. When you get a few followers, you then become a cult. When it becomes mainstream, then it is considered a religion. When the following regresses, it goes back to being a cult. When the following wakes up, it has gone full circle and is once again right back at the beginning.
mt49er
Level 7
Oct 30, 2018
4
The word “cult” has come to mean a very bad group that will brainwash you and control you and take your money.
Just about every religious organization has people who go around labeling other religions as cults. I was leafing through a book written by a Baptist in Texas. He described Hinduism, Buddhism, and Catholicism as cults. Narrow minded aye?
I had a brush with Scientology back in ‘68. Now THAT is a cult.
WilliamFleming
Level 8
Oct 30, 2018
1
@OwlInASack Tell me one religion that is not a cult...
@OwlInASack Your cult definition DEFINITELY applies to the Catholic Church - an identifiable entity.
There is just no set of identifiers that hold to any but one or a few non-catholic churches, if even that many...
@OwlInASack I don’t know much about the Catholic Church but I am told there is a lot of variation, not only among churches, but there are various schools of thought concerning doctrine as well.
That book I saw had the entire Catholic Church from top to bottom labeled as a cult, which I thought stretched the meaning of the word.
On the other hand, I think that all churches have some cultish characteristics. It would be fun to list those characteristics and give a cult rating to various religions.
i am not religionist but i DO make a distinction between religion and cult. a cult has some characteristics share by some religions and not others. one of them, an important one, is the charismatic leader that convinces his (usually his) flock that everyone else in the world is sinning, lying, wrong, and that only he can be trusted. isolation is key. i know people who go to various churches and do not let that keep them from having normal lives, nor do they proselytize, nor do they vote on one issue (determined by their churches). they're normal people and if they happen to believe, to varying degrees, in a god, which i find silly, that doesn't make them cult members. there IS a difference. this is not in defense of religion. it's in defense of defining our terms accurately.
g
genessa
Level 8
Oct 30, 2018
1
Good points.
There are degrees of cultiness.
@WilliamFleming i know an episcopalian whose church is much less a cult than the republican party is! she is a wonderful, reasonable person and she has never mentioned god to me. lol
g
Religion just means acceptability.
Cult just means out of the ordinary.
They were synonyms until the intense goddites took over so much of American society.
Take a millennia old religion into modern western society and it’s a cult.
I was a practicing Buddhist and that’s what I was termed a member of by “people”.
You can say they were wrong but they never would.
I was actually called the anti-Christ!!
Words have denotation and connotation.
Cult and religion have the exact same denotation.
The CONNOTATION is what differs!!
@Ungod that simply is not true. "cult" has its own meaning and you can make up a new one that pleases you better but then we won't be speaking the same language. my description in my original post above is accurate. it's not just connotation, and it's not just acceptability, which is not actually part of the definition. cult and religion do NOT have the exact same denotation. they do not mean the same thing. religions may resemble cults, and cults may make claims to be religions, but they are not the same thing, and it's not about connotation. your being called the antichrist has no bearing on the definitions of the words.
g
@genessa
Ok, my being called the anti-Christ is a non issue...
And ok, you can define, differentiate and say all those things you did about cult and religion.
You can give them any definition you like.
I just want to see the SOURCE for what you say.
You said soo many things about both. What is the verification? What and where is the verification for ALL these things you are saying?
Me, I offer the dictionary definitions of American English.
Not too long ago, cult and religion were synonyms.
The #1 definition in the dictionaries I researched.
I believe they are still listed as synonyms today, but with other definitions perhaps preceeding it, describing cult in SOME ways you mentioned.
Those other descriptions make up some of what I call CONNOTATION.
Many words have connotation beyond its denotation.
Like it or not, cult and religion are still SYNONYMS and I submit dictionary definition as supporting proof of this.
Connotation, like what you are saying is very open ended and anyone can make up any connotations they wish.
The important thing imho, is the SUPPORT you have for your definitions.
WHO, how many and what society uses your connotations.
If it’s just your opinion I don’t care.
SUPPORT what you are saying!!
@genessa
This Wikipedia definition supports my view that cult has a NEW meaning in today’s English that is “pejorative” and “derogatory” and filled with “controversial connotations” as many are posting here in this very thread!
[en.m.wikipedia.org]
The controversy is hardly a done issue and the meaning/usage of cult is constantly changing!.
New meanings don’t necessarily cancel the old ones!
Cults are religions and religions are cults!
@genessa
“Cult” just has no fixed meaning whatsoever!
Its meaning is basically pejorative AND, now that I think of it, that is the point I was making about being called the Antichrist...
I was called that because I was a member of the “cult” of Buddhism - a “cult” with culture bound American Xian’s like him, but one of the world’s major religions, far older and with more followers than Xianty!
Buddhism, a CULT !!!
“Cult” imho, is most accurately and simply defined as, “a pejorative term for a religious system”.
MINE is a religion, YOURS is a cult !!
@genessa
Cult and religion are SYNONYMS!:
“Synonyms of cult:
credo, creed, faith, persuasion, religion”
[merriam-webster.com]
@Ungod i looked up "masturbation" in a dictionary when i was about 13. the definition was "self-abuse." i did not find it helpful.
you asked for sources. there are so many it is hard to select just a few, but i have nonetheless done so, and i've managed to do so in just one post.
theguardian and from that:
Here are 10 warning signs of a potentially unsafe group or leader.
• Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
• No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
• No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget or expenses, such as an independently audited financial statement.
• Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
• There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
• Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
• There are records, books, news articles, or broadcast reports that document the abuses of the group/leader.
• Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
• The group/leader is always right.
• The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
all forms of judaism save the ultra-orthodox and chassidim do NOT fit this description, and even then, the "do not question" and "never good enough" bits definitely do not apply. i'm pretty sure buddhism doesn't either. i don't know anything about druids. i do know christians who do not fit the description (and alas i know some who do).
g
@genessa
Cult and religion are SYNONYMS!:
“Synonyms of cult:
credo, creed, faith, persuasion, religion”
[merriam-webster.com]
@Ungod just because two words are listed as synonyms that does not mean they have the precise same definition or application and you probably KNOW that, even though you posted twice as if you did not know it. your masturbation comment was uncalled for and unappreciated. and you asked for sources, in all caps even, and yet had nothing whatsoever to say about the ones i provided. this leads me to wonder two things: 1. why do you have to make three or four posts to say one thing? and 2. why am i even talking to you if you're going to be snarky, and you ARE being snarky. i have nothing further to say to you and won't be reading your gazillion (some repetitive, all wrong) response posts any longer.
g
p.s. ... except to say that the definition of mine = religion, yours = cult is incorrect, and i don't know anyone, not even evangelicals, who think that way. it's more like mine = religion, yours = mythology. i am clarifying this for others who may be reading this, since you will find some way to twist that around.
They are one in the same. The only percieved difference is the negative connotation attached to Cult. Other uses describe the following of some thing by people. Usually this something is music or movie gener. Dubbed Cult movie classics for an example. Also most occults remain secret and cling to discretion to avoid persecution at the hands of other religions.
Ceaselessmind
Level 7
Oct 30, 2018
2
It is just a cycle
New = Cult
Around = Religion
Passed = Myth
I cannot wait to hear the Christian Myth!!!
AlexRam
Level 7
Jan 15, 2019
2
That seems to fit Roman and Greek mythology - it was quite a while before I realized that these were established religions when Xianity was a ‘cult’, by today’s definition!
I believe Xians were actually called atheists too !!
Academically, a cult can be determined as a movement in tension with society. A sect as a group in tension with its leading religion. These types have been classified as New Religious Movements (NRM) for the purpose of removing derogatory associations.
Geoffrey51
Level 8
Oct 31, 2018
1
In anthropology I was taught that ALL RELIGIONS begin as social movement groups...
@Ungod That would be so. Cults don’t require a religious root. A sect is a response to the religious root.
@Geoffrey51
If you can come up with a working definition for cult, that would have meaning...
Right now ‘cult’ means anything the person using that word wants it to mean!
“Religious root”!??
@Ungod A cult is a movement in tension with society. A sect is a movement in tension with its root religion.
@Geoffrey51 In anthropology I was taught that ALL RELIGIONS begin as social movement groups...
There is no difference. They both involve brain washing and taking peoples money. I use to belong to baptist cult and thought becoming a member of the catholic cult. I'm glad I'm an atheist, because no one has the right to control me. If I could find my baptism certificet, I would burn as a symbol that I"m free.
freedom41
Level 9
Oct 31, 2018
2
And there are those who would call atheism a cult !!
The difference is the number of members. The numbers in a cult are small, religions (in your context) are large.
MacTavish
Level 7
Oct 31, 2018
2
I thoroughly believe Catholicism and Jehovah Witness fit the bill for what many say is a cult - they’ve just been around longer, are well established and have large memberships!
They try to use that as cult insurance, but they are as culty as Moonies!!
A cult does not allways have to be associated with an established religion. A cult of personality or brand is so commen those days. The main attribute of a cult is the behavior of it's followers. For example, the blind support and fallowing of a figure or an idea regardless of facts.
IdenIzzat
Level 4
Oct 30, 2018
2
Religions are cults then?
@JurassicT4 historically, yes but I don't think it have to be that way.
@IdenIzzat doesn't have to but at the root of it it is. Either way they suck ass lol.
@JurassicT4 True.
Behavior yes...
Christianity is a cult of human sacrifice. - Dr Sam Harris
Based on my reading, I think the only difference between a religion and a cult is the size of it's membership.
gsiamne
Level 8
Oct 30, 2018
2
Is there a cult of Sam Harris followers?
Size, it does matter.
Sticks48
Level 9
Oct 30, 2018
2
Yeah, it does, but all I can do is blame my parents for that. So the definition of cult would be an irrational belief by a few and Religions definition would be an irrational belief by many? Is their a number that you need to exceed to become a religion?
Sorry to put this here but in response to Ungod’s continued intransigence to others comments. A cult is in conflict with society’s conventions such as aggressive sporting fraternities as seen for example, in UK and Russia, some motorcycle groups. These are secular ideologies and require no religious foundation.
A sect is a fragmentation of a religion for example The East/West split in Christianity and all fragmentation’s since including C of E, Greek Orthodox, Coptic etc., The split in Islam, i.e. Sunni, Shia, Sufi and the many variation of Buddhism which you can research.
These fragmentations continue to the present day and will no doubt continue.
Hopefully these are sufficient examples to address the question of the original poster.
Geoffrey51
Level 8
Jan 15, 2019
1
Nice, you begin with disparaging comments... Then you go on to yet another OPINONATED “definition”!
I too can offer opionated definitions, but I realize that’s TRULY meaningless!!
@Ungod okay. This is NOT opinion this academic classification. Please do your own research.
@Geoffrey51
A cult is a motorcycle group! Anyone/thing “in conflict with society’s conventions”!
Yeah, real “academic”!!
Cult is a pejorative term for religion.
In your case, it’s a pejorative term for ANYTHING and ANYBODY !!
Ridiculous, but ok. That’s what’s called an OPINIONATED definition!
‘Sect’ has nothing to do with ANTHING in regards to this discussion !!
@Ungod I’m glad that’s decided then. Good luck in your search
@Geoffrey51
Cult is a pejorative term for religion.
Good!!
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