@TheAstroChuck Again, it's ignoring the evidence. I remember having an argument about the Younger Dryas impact study and I presented scientific papers to the other person like you, and he just simply ignored it. Didn't even try to counter me with similar papers pointing out his view saying it was nonsense.
So where do you want to start? Ignoring cattle mutilations, implant removals, soil samples from reported landing sites, radar evidence, Multiple witnesses? Again physical evidence has been collected and Stanton Friedman writes about how Seth Shostak refused such evidence of soil samples of a landing site.
Jacques Vallée is starting a movement in the UFO community to completely ignore the scientific community and do research on UFO physical evidence themselves.
So again, who's the one ignoring the evidence?

@sirbikesalot06 I absolutely understand where you are coming from. I was right there saying the same things over and over 20+ years ago. I know all the big names, evidence, etc. But if you look at all of it even mildly skeptically, none of it is compelling. As Mulder's poster said, "I want to believe," and someone who wants to believe in the claim is in a profoundly biased position to judge the merits of the evidence of the claim. Witnesses are notoriously terrible. (I used to laugh about people saying a sighting was Venus, and was reminded by this a few weeks ago one morning when I literally saw Venus out my bedroom window and became genuinely concerned it might be an asteroid about to kill us all. I had never seen anything in the morning sky--besides the sun--that BRIGHT before. I watched it for 10 minutes before considering it COULD be Venus, then looking it up on the net to see where Venus was supposed to be that morning at that time in the sky...and sure enough, it WAS Venus, which is far less compelling a story than an asteroid about to kill us all.) The other evidence is uncontrolled, inconclusive, anomalous, or easily faked. In other words, unfalsifiable, a bit weird for unknown reasons, not understood, or easily faked. That's not a list of the kinds of evidence I want to find aliens guilty of abducting people. (And indeed, even if I had an "experience" myself, I would more conclude I was having mental health issues than that I was actually abducted in the absence of corroborating evidence. I understand all too well how easily the human brain malfunctions. I've had more than one family member see zombies, angels, babies, aliens, ufos, dancing girls, cowboys, vampires, government-controlled cameras in the tv, old women smoking cigarettes, children playing, dead bodies on the floor, a man attacking a woman, Jesus in the sun, ghosts, and several other things I don't remember.)
...
But I will bite. What is the VERY VERY best single piece of evidence you have for the existence of extra terrestrial visitors to earth that doesn't rely on a logical fallacy, evidence gathered in an uncontrolled way, inconclusive evidence, anomalous (unknown) evidence, testimonial evidence, easily faked evidence, or evidence that is otherwise unfalsifiable? Last I checked, there was none. Which was ultimately the reason I changed my mind on the question. It's not that we are ignoring anything. It is that what the claimants are presenting just isn't compelling unless you start with the conclusion and then look for things to confirm it, no matter what it is. But I'm open to changing my mind BACK. I'm still in love with the idea. We're just not married anymore, lol.

@TheAstroChuck You may find this documentary interesting. It ultimately was titled "A Journey to Planet Sanity", although it must have gone through some kind of production hell because it took several years and several titles before it was released. I finally bought it on blu ray a year or so ago. There are 2-3 trailers on youtube, and someone posted a big chunk of it...apparently by recording their tv with their phone or something. Just checked amazon and it is available with Prime. I highly recommend it.

@TheAstroChuck yeah they are and as you point to @greyeyed123 as a champion of intellectuals, in reality he goes on about the brightness of Venus in morning. He clearly doesn't bring up the lights doing 90° turns or going out, disappearing. Again my complaint was that people like you ignore evidence and @greyeyed123 and you are clearly ignoring evidence.
@greyeyed123 also brings up witness observations claiming it's unreliable. When 10 or more people see the same object from different point of views is unreliable yet isn't science base in observation data? And this is why I say about treating you like religious nut job, because people like you will throw out the phrase "log falacy" like a Bible thumper points to a Bible.
Remember when I said that long time UFO researchers like Jacques Vallée are basically bypassing scientist? Well he's testing material he has and the test results are coming back on how pure these materials are and when they were found, it would have costed over $4 tillion dollars to make such a pure piece of metal.
Again the job of organization like MUFON isn't to prove the that UFOs are real, their job is to collect evidence so when future generations are interested, they're not starting from scratch like John Keal. For people like me, we're beyond "wanting to believe." "We want to know."

@sirbikesalot06 As I already said, I know all the stories. Dozens of people at Salem all saw the same thing--witches controlling children. People at Fatima all saw the same thing--the sun dancing in the sky (come to find out decades and decades later that some people present DIDN'T see the sun dancing--it was just that confirmation bias was so strong, and the will to believe so overwhelming, that the reports of seeing nothing were not spread after the fact). Human perception is notoriously BAD. (I only mentioned Venus because AS I SAID, I used to laugh at people making that stupid suggestion. And even years after I became a skeptic on the subject, I fell victim to the misperception myself.) You probably don't believe me, but I've read Keal and Vallee, probably years and years before you did. I've also read Strieber and John Mack and Stanton Friedman and Jim Mars and dozens of others. (Do you find it odd that the alien stories people told in the '40s and '50s are so very different than the ones people tell today? Or the aliens in South America are so very different than the aliens in the US? Doesn't that parallel religious beliefs in different regions?)
"He clearly doesn't bring up the lights doing 90° turns or going out, disappearing."
If that was the perception of the witnesses, then
A) it is something that is unknown.
B) declaring it is known by virtue of being unknown is an argument from ignorance fallacy.
C) it is only mildly weird given humans have only been around 100-250 thousand years, the planet is almost 5 billion years old, and the universe almost 14 billion. We are bound to encounter natural phenomena once in a while that is initially inexplicable. Jumping to conclusions because they are the conclusions you want to jump to is not rational (and I jumped to the same conclusions you did FOR DECADES).

"yet isn't science base in observation data?"
Indeed. And those observations would be UNKNOWN. You then have to hypothesize what they are, test them under controlled conditions in an unfalsifiable manner. To declare that they are aliens abducting us because you saw lights in the sky doing things you can't explain is the definition of irrational because the claim is unfalsifiable, and the observation is UNKNOWN and UNIDENTIFIED. (It is the very same as saying they are witches on broomsticks, angry ghosts, or Thor. The only reason you think they are alien spacecraft is because that is the first association you make when seeing unknown things in the sky.)

"Well he's testing material he has and the test results are coming back on how pure these materials are and when they were found, it would have costed over $4 tillion dollars to make such a pure piece of metal."

I'll believe this claim when it is verified by a dozen independent chemists. The fact that a UFO researcher claimed it is just not compelling. The fact is, you WANT to believe it, so you throw it out there as if it is absolutely true and the rest of us are nut jobs for not believe it. Well, the easiest way to FAKE this evidence is to simply lie or exaggerate. This is an extraordinary claim (as far as I can tell--I maybe wrong). I am not an expert. But I suspect the claim "this is so pure it would have cost 4 trillion dollars to make" was made by Vallee himself, or one person associated with him. If it had been verified by a half dozen or two dozen independent chemists, it would be news. (And even if it was not news, I myself would look at it more closely. The problem is that it wasn't verified in such a way, was it? And yet you still accept it...because you want to accept it. I suspect you will ignore the nuance of what I just wrote, and come back and say it WAS verified...by one guy...who works with Vallee...who isn't really sure what it is...but somehow knows it would cost 4 trillion dollars to make. How did he calculate that number, anyway? I want to see math! lol I can still remember when such claims were completely compelling to me, and now I see them for what they are. Nonsense. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, though.)

@greyeyed123 hey, I can post trailers too. Free on Netflix. Trailer over dramatic though.

Oh BTW, lead does a better job in blocking those mind control waves. #scarcasm. ????

@sirbikesalot06 Well if that one guy is "telling me", it must be true. The stories are very compelling as stories, I agree. But they are just stories. They are not compelling as arguments. I do implore you to not project onto me a point of view as if I am someone who was always skeptical of UFO phenomena. I am willing to bet I spent far more time studying it and obsessing about it than you have. Indeed, in the '90s we had X-Files, alien autopsy, Art Bell, etc. I probably spent thousands of hours listening to Art Bell alone! If 10,000 hours makes one an expert, I'm probably an expert two or three times over, lol.
...
What so annoying about my journey is that skeptics assume I was always skeptical, and true believers assume I was never one of them...neither of which is remotely true. One way I know I am in a better position now on this issue is because I can fake my way as a true believer with my eyes closed, and no one knows I'm faking. But you can't fake the ability to think critically, skeptically, and rationally. Which is why these weird claims never make it off the ground with people who actually know how to evaluate and test claims to determine their truth value. They just don't pass the test, no matter what one dude on one netflix doc says "I'm telling you...". But I will watch the doc...with popcorn. I also just got my last two seasons of X-Files on blu ray. AWESOME!

@sirbikesalot06 Here's another trailer. You watch my movie, and I'll watch yours. Deal? It's on amazon prime.

@TheAstroChuck This reminds me of a couple of comments Tracie Harris once made on the atheist experience. She said that if you want to know the family structures of Big Foot, you have to first establish that Big Foot exists--THEN you determine the family structures, mating habits, sleep patterns, etc. She also said, "Don't do with god what you wouldn't do with Big Foot." I would tweak it to say, "Don't do with aliens what you wouldn't do with Big Foot."
...
I'm only 15 minutes into the Patient 17 doc. The "patient" is portrayed as completely oblivious to ufology. He tells us he has never heard of Dr. Leir, and has never seen a UFO. And then in the middle of having his leg cut open to remove the "implant", he describes how he was abducted by aliens as a child. (It is also weird that they spend a couple of minutes showing him frying eggs and bacon, and a couple of minutes of Dr. Leir playing an organ, when the hour documentary is supposedly illustrating the most important story in the history of mankind, lol. I don't mean to laugh. I remember what it felt like when people laughed at my cherished alien beliefs back in the day, but we do need to grow up a little bit, don't we? There is better evidence for Santa.)

@TheAstroChuck I was going to say the chemist/metal expert was not terribly believable because he was only one dude and worked for Dr. Leir. Then the results he gave were pretty tepid. He hedged and hawed. The documentary guy kept asking leading questions, and he provided half-hearted confirmations. Yeah, it probably was from off planet. You probably wouldn't be able to fake this, probably. You'd have to test some random metal samples, such as nails, and you would probably not get the same results they got from the metal fragment in the guy's leg. Probably. ...
...
AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS. The metal expert says he was actually PATIENT 15, and that he has gone through this process himself, his wife left him due to his obsession, and Dr. Leir didn't want anyone to know about this because he was Dr. Leir's "expert." Good grief. (No mention of 4 trillion dollars.)
...
The final metal expert, if correct, could easily have his results confirmed by others instead of begging us to believe him and answering every leading question the filmmaker asks him.
...
The filmmaker tries to confirm these results, according to him, with the lab. The lab claimed that mistakes can happen, contamination, etc. They perform multiple other independent tests. He says the results are 50/50, half saying it is common, everyday metal, and 50 saying it is originating off earth.
...
With evidence like that, who needs verification? Aliens are real! AHAHAHAH! Good grief.

@greyeyed123 the 4 trillion dollars is Jacques Vallée piece of metal. He hasn't featured that in any video that I'm aware of.

"With evidence like that, who needs verification? Aliens are real! AHAHAHAH! Good grief."

And this statement pretty much proves my point. It doesn't matter what evidence is presented, you'll just consider it nonsense. You know who else ignores evidence? Ken Ham. Sounds like you're more religious than an objective person.

I'll watch your video if it's on Netflix tonight, but will asking you right now, why is the federal government still harassing witnesses to the Roswell event to this very day. After all, it was just a weather balloon.

@sirbikesalot06 Patient 17 said that if aliens were real, his Christianity would crumble--as if the two are remotely connected...except for the fact that they are both faith based.
...
There aren't many living witnesses to Roswell. Anyone 18 or older at the time would be 89 or older today...if my math is correct.
...
To make this easier, if you present to me a living, breathing alien, I will believe you. If you present to me a dead alien, confirmed to be an unknown biological entity with chemistry too different from any on earth to be earthly, I will make the inference that is extra-terrestrial (which is not entirely rational in itself, but that's what I would do). If you present to me a technology that two dozen of our best scientists confirm does something, but they have no idea how...I will make the inference that it is extra-terrestrial (also not completely rational of me, but that's what I would do).
...
What you need is confirmation by independent experts in controlled ways. All you have is the most flimsy of evidence imaginable. It is either uncontrolled, unfalsifiable, witness testimony, hearsay, anomalous, easily faked, inconclusive, deeply dependent on the argument from ignorance fallacy, or unidentified. That isn't evidence for an claim so extraordinary (your documentary calls it an "extraordinary belief" at least once).
...
Your problem is you accept every claim as evidence if it supports your foregone conclusion. That's not how evidence, reason, or argument works. And honestly, this pattern of flimsy evidence over decades is another main reason I am now so very skeptical of the overall claim of alien visitation (much less abduction, etc).
...
You say Ken Ham ignores evidence. Ken Ham has exactly the same kind of evidence you do. His overall claims are also based on witness testimony, hearsay, personal conviction, confirmation bias, a never ending list of unfalsifiable supporting claims, easily faked evidence, inconclusive evidence, pareidolia, etc. You think I am ignoring evidence, WHEN YOU ARE IGNORING THE FACT THAT I ALREADY TOLD YOU I SPENT THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF HOURS studying this for more than two decades. Do you just not believe me? I was an absolutely true believer. You keep talking to me as if I missed something over those thousands of hours and changed my mind on a whim. Are you not curious how or why my view changed? You seem more keen on accusing me of being overly rational and ignoring evidence that, I told you, I already knew all about AND ACCEPTED WHOLE HEARTEDLY for years. Until I learned how critical thinking and evidence actually works. I didn't just suddenly decide to reject conclusive evidence that had been rigorously tested using controlled, unfalsifiable methodology over decades. I discovered that none of the extraordinary claims made by ufologists had ever passed any such testing over years and years and years. If the phenomena were real, something would have turned up in the wash by now that would have passed rigorous testing and skepticism. Nothing has. That doesn't mean something isn't there. It means something is very, very likely not there. But again, I asked for your BEST possible evidence, and you've offered none that isn't tainted by completely biased sources. Again, you need evidence that passes the basic tests of being verifiable, reproducible, falsifiable, and predictive by INDEPENDENT testers, not people who are also secretly Dr. Leir's patient 15 whose wife left him because of his obsession with having been abducted by aliens. You can see how that is not acceptable evidence, right?

@sirbikesalot06 This is a much better documentary in terms of filmmaking and storytelling. Also on Netflix. (The logical fallacies and arguments from ignorance are smooth and appeal to our hysteria. Not clunky like in the other documentary.)

I used to believe in much of the UFO mythology...more so than I ever believed in a god. I probably read thousands of pages of aliens/ufo books in the '90s in between weekly episodes of The X-Files. Somewhere between the late '90s and mid-2000s, I did a lot of reading on atheism...skepticism...etc, and then ended up applying skepticism to all my weird beliefs. (I still wonder what I was thinking when I thought "Communion" was compelling evidence of alien abduction...when written by a horror/sci-fi writer. It is still a fascinating exercise in understanding myth, in that the author claimed it was nonfiction and yet it was filled with fantastical elements with flimsy to no corroboration...yet told so compellingly that the reader is desperate for it to be true if for no other reason than the story would be far less interesting if it wasn't.)