How will it lessen the casualties? Any idiot can make a bomb or chemical agent that is twice as effective as small arms fire.

@jayneonacobb I already talked about that in the other post. You are talking about what ifs. We are dealing with reality here.

yes, how did guns help in las vagus or this school shooting? I'm sure it would have been just as dangerous in las vagus if he threw sharp objects out of the window. who fired back at him? maybe a flamethrower out of the window. in the UK we have all that other stuff apart from the guns. why is there such a vast difference in murders?

@LeighShelton those people were in a gun free zone. That made them an easy target. Do you not see the problem with your logic?

@Piece2YourPuzzle and I wrecked you there too.

Flamethowers for sale;
[techcrunch.com]

@jayneonacobb You wrecked me? Lol What are you smoking? Grow up.

@Normanbites How many crimes have been registered where a flamethrower was the weapon of choice?

@Normanbites Let's see the statistics of mass flamings in America in the last 50 years.

@Piece2YourPuzzle you provided no legitimate arguments. I provided logical and factual ones.

@jayneonacobb You think you did. You went off on a tangent that had nothing to do with the original argument. Something I wasn't even disputing. Not logical at all.

@Piece2YourPuzzle because I have answered your questions many times before on multiple threads. Go read them before perpetuating endless content.

@jayneonacobb Dude, it's not even funny. You are severely overestimating yourself. It seems a little delusional. You debate using strawmen. It's not logical or honest. You probably also assume I want all guns taken away from people who own them. You can't see the forest for the trees. You have such a deep bias that you aren't even listening to the actual arguments and are making stuff up to prove a point that was never being argued. And then you act like you won a trophy or something. Also, on many threads? It's the same thread on 2 different posts.

Protecting your home or business from looting during rioting is a good reason to have access to that tool. I do agree reasonable regulations would be a good thing but who decides what reasonable is remains a concern.

@Normanbites I wholeheartedly disagree that you need an AR-15 to protect your home or business. I think the fact that the GOP shot down the idea to ban guns to people on the terrorist watchlist means the Republicans in govt. are not interested in reasonable regulation. All we are asking for is background checks, mental health eval, proper training, and closing the gun show loopholes.

@Normanbites why are you rioting ?

@markdevenish because Trump stole a second election??

@MissInfermiera I can see you have never personally survived a riot.

Uncut L.A. Riot Footage- Reginald Denny Beating/ Looting - YouTube

@Normanbites if in a rioting situation...wouldn't you want to get the 'hell' out of dodge? Or would you rather kill them off...one by one to protect your 'things?' People seem to always come back to 'killing' with their guns and it is usually people they suspect may harm them...at some point down the road...when they RIOT etc!!! Lol

@Normanbites: I actually have lived through 3 riots in my lifetime, 2 in So FL in the early 80's, and the LA Riots in 92. It only affected those who had a business in the area. The odds of you being a Reginald Denny are pretty infinitesimal.

Many of those Korean business owners who armed themselves used conventional weapons such as shotgun, or handguns.

So if this is the reason you want to be armed with an assault weapon, then maybe it is the precise reason you shouldn't have one.

@Normanbites Again, in the riots you're referring to, they didn't use AR-15's, which is the type of weapon I'm specifically referring to, no need for condescension. Also protecting your business during a riot is such a specific scenario that you really think they should allow any nutjob to pick up military weapons just in case of that? Don't be absurd.

@MissInfermiera I accept your final point in that I don't want any nutjob to pick up a dangerous tool of ANY kind. Access to quality Mental health care for everyone has to be a priority over gun control I'm hoping. I'm beginning to think it would be a great idea if we could shut down all gun control debate until AFTER we have quality mental health care for everyone.

Ever heard of mustard gas? It's really easy to make and deploy. It also has a much higher rate of efficacy compared to small arms fire. You can make such compounds for a fraction of the cost of a box of rounds. I am not advocating the use of this chemical agent as a weapon. I'm just pointing out the fact that deadlier weapons are available at the grocery store than the sporting goods store.

@jayneonacobb So then why don't people use them? How many cases of mustard gas have there been in America?

@Piece2YourPuzzle because that doesn't make such a grand statement. Very few examples of mustard gas being used in the us exist. That doesn't change the fact that there are cheaper, just as easy and more accessible options available to these sick people. The Unabomber caused a lot of damage with his simple pipe bombs. Your argument is moot given the myriad of weapons available to children, let alone adults that can be made out of simple house hold products.

@jayneonacobb I would put you on the watch list

@jayneonacobb If it doesn't make a grand statement then they won't use it. Yes, but there aren't many cases. It's easier to get a gun and pull the trigger. Especially if it's a snap decision. You need time to research and build a bomb etc. and you might actually kill yourself in the process.

@jayneonacobb you sound like someone who can be very dangerous with your thinking.

@LeighShelton I passed numerous background checks and psychological evaluations to achieve my degree. My knowledge may be dangerous, and you have no idea my level of education on this matter. I was approved by the government to make deadly weapons. That should tell you something about my character. Einstein worked on the Manhattan project. I can make a weapon out of a USB device. It's what I do. Those same skills keep you free to say what you want. Without people like me you'd be a subject of the crown, or Islam. My family has a history of working in the weapons industry. My uncle used to design nuclear weapons for the US government. That doesn't mean I would ever dream of using my knowledge to commit an act of violence that wasn't in the defense of my self, family, Property or your freedom.

@Piece2YourPuzzle mustard gas can wipe out an entire building with about $8 worth of products. All you have to do is combine the proper ingredients. Gun control is a moot point.

@markdevenish I'm already on them per us law. Which isn't legal by the way. Besides the fact that the government approved me to do this work.

@jayneonacobb have you noticed that you defend 'killing'' more than you defend 'living'...just saying, I am paying attention!!!

@jayneonacobb Gun control is not a moot point. That's like saying laws or even life are a moot point because someone can build a portable nuke. You keep going back to this "mustard gas can" point, but the reality is that gun deaths are a major problem in the U.S. Not forks, not bow and arrows, and not mustard gas.

@markdevenish I knew there was something else that needed saying to our 'friend'....you nailed it! Lol. "The watch list!'

@jayneonacobb Einstein, my dear person, never wanted to make things that kill people? Where are you going with this...you really should take note of at least a few responses and see if they mean anything to you? Stop your thoughts for a moment and ask your heart...what it thinks? You are FAR to hung up on laws and word games!

@Piece2YourPuzzle in 2016 alone guns were used in defense 80 times more often than for any gun crimes. That's a fact from the FBI's report on gun statistics. That's 2.5 million uses of a gun to save a life or stop a crime in a year. Almost 7000 a day. Gun control is a moot point.

@Freedompath that's absurd. Guns save more lives and stop more crimes than they take.

@Freedompath he didn't have to work on the Manhattan project, he chose to knowing full well the ramifications of his actions

@jayneonacobb NOW...you are becoming crazy!!!!

@jayneonacobb Save more lives? Please show us the evidence Jayne - lets have a few substantiated facts here not just opinions.

@alangodless [gunowners.org]

@Freedompath you mean to tell me that Einstein didn't understand the destructive power of the weapon he helped create? That's crazy. He had a choice, he chose to create weapons of mass destruction.

@jayneonacobb Thanks Jayne - interesting stats, although they are from the somewhat biased GOA. I wonder if there is a confirmatory set of data from an unbiased source? Anyway, interesting. I think it raises the more fundamental question of why the US has so many armed criminals in the first place.

@alangodless the FBI released a ton of data last year on their web site. That's where those stats are from. We're the most well armed society in human history. That comes at a price. Some people are just sick.

@jayneonacobb When did I mention anything that you are talking about? You are going off on a tangent. Gun control is not a moot point. You are all over the place. Seriously though, who thinks, "Hey, I feel like going on a rampage today. I'm going to make some mustard gas."? No, they choose the easy impulsive option.

@Piece2YourPuzzle If you can't follow point out to me what you're missing and I'll fill in the gaps. I think the Unabomber would dispute that position rather well.

@jayneonacobb the Unabomber used matches as his base material. I suppose they will want to ban those next???

@jayneonacobb Oh ok. I guess you won.

@Normanbites my point exactly.

@Piece2YourPuzzle nice cop out, but yes. You can't hold a candle to my argument.

@jayneonacobb Yes, very reasonable arguments lol. Hey, we use light to see what we're doing, should we ban light so we can't see the weapons? You guys make me laugh.

@jayneonacobb my son was here yesterday and when I read your comment to him...he reminded me that later in his life, Einstein, reported that was his greatest regret...working on that project! You surely must know that a lot of us have studied history for years, way passed the class room!

Probably because they get affordable treatment there and NOT in the US??

There's a problem with your logic. It's called criminality and the black market.

all guns are made for killing

@markdevenish no, there are specifically made rifles, pistols and shotguns made for target shooting and hunting.

@jayneonacobb hunting is 'killing' last I heard just a short time ago!

@Freedompath hunting is killing, hopefully to keep humans alive. Where do you think meat comes from?

At one point I asked, "Why not mental health care first, then more strict gun laws if we still need them?" The answers I got boiled down to "It's too hard!"

I think getting quality medical health care to be available and affordable for all is not only a gun issue, it is a human right!

I think I'm beginning to settle on that as my current stance. If we can't provide mental health care for our citizens, there is not much point in talking about more strict gun control laws.

Here's why you're wrong. This is a full list of accurate gun stats from 2016.
[gunowners.org]

@jayneonacobb
That doesn't refute what I said. If all those numbers the site used were real and effective there wouldn't be a debate.

@Anonbene they are real, they are cited, peer reviewed and corroborated. Your inability to accept evidence is your failing, not the data's.

@jayneonacobb
Anecdotes are not evidence. Someone claiming they scared off an intruder with a gun doesn't mean or prove anything. It's just a story. It doesn't verify yours or the websites claims.

bottom line is always $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

@Anonbene those aren't anecdotes they are legal cases.

@jayneonacobb

I'm going to have to block you Jayne. The website you represent is even more extreme than the NRA. I'm not interested in what your selling.

@Anonbene typical liberal attitudes you disagree with evidence so you sensor your world. Real mature.

@jayneonacobb PLEASE, PLEASE come down off your high, HIGH horse! I would not hesitate to break a law that harmed people...you seem intent on hurting people to protect a LAW!

@Anonbene that makes no sense. The data base is comprised of all gun related activity in the us.

True. I've never met anyone who needs a semi-auto. They want them. They do not need them.

@farmboy2017 Thank you. I'm a gun owner, I'm not suggesting anyone be denied their Second Amendment rights. I am, however, adamant that no needs semi-automatic weapons, or the high-capacity magazines they utilize. Banning conversion materials would be helpful, too. Just because someone is mentally ill, doesn't make them stupid. No one needs to be able to convert their weaponry to becoming even more deadly.

@KKGator I, too, am a gun owner. Mine are all single action, bolt action, or break-overs. Semi auto is for combat.

Actually, the far greater number of firearm deaths are by pistol, not rifle. Mostly suicides again by a very large margin. So once again, if the objective is saving lives, mental health care will make a far greater impact.

@Normanbites I've been advocating all along for increased mental health funding and awareness. That said, NO ONE "needs" an AR type weapon. I don't care what excuses they try to use. We're also talking about mass-shootings here with an assault weapons ban.

@KKGator and so, why not FIRST easy access to quality mental health care, THEN more gun laws? The gun laws already in place SHOULD have prevented most of the recent shootings. How would having more laws that aren't used fix anything??

@Normanbites Because getting an assault weapons ban will be easier than getting Congress and 45 to pass more spending for mental health issues. The insurance companies won't improve their coverage unless they are forced to. I'm not looking for MORE laws. Just a return to the ban on the manufacture and sale of all assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. That's a not new law. It never should have been permitted to expire.

@KKGator Do you have any evidence the prior assault weapon ban made any difference? I haven't seen such data. If you have it, I'd love to see it.

@Normanbites I'm done with this conversation. It's nothing personal, I just can't with this topic anymore. Enjoy your weekend.

@KKGator Not being able to find data to support your claim is kind of a red flag, isn't it?

We DO have a larger UNTREATED mentally Ill population than any other industrialized nation.

@Normanbites Well not so. In many cases the mentally ill need to be cared about and loved and that is what other nations do. We just put them on meds and allow the purchase of guns .
GUNS are NOT the issue here, not at all, NO one debates the right to own a gun or hunting rifle. NO ONE The issue is this "do everyday citizens need to out arm the police"

@EMC2 perhaps I should have said something about quality treatment, poor treatment is often worse than no treatment. But I get the sense I could tweek that observation forever, there would always be someone to take issue with it no matter how dire our access to proper health care is.

Riiight. Because no one has ever been killed by a knife, a bat, a hammer or even a car. C'mon already.

Lmao, a .223 has very little fire power comparatively to what is available. That technology isn't practical or affordable. Are you saying that only the rich have a right to self defense? That's what you're arguing by default. What if a police officer picks up a pistol dropped by an assailant and needs it to stop a rampage?

"Do you know that the technology already exists to have DNA locks on firearms, meaning only the registered shooter can make the gun work? But that feature has been blocked by, you guessed it, the NRA." All guns come with a free trigger lock. No need for a sci-fi system...the problem now is that gun owners do not use them. Also, you seem to be oblivious to the fact that an estimated 315 million guns exist already in the US...making the adding of a super-duper DNA lock system from the manufacture of new guns much of a waste of time. Holly advanced system no one wants, Batman!

@jayneonacobb: In 1957, some of the specifcations by the US Army for the development of the next evolution of the military's small arms ammunition to which led to the .223 Remington:

-Bullet exceeding supersonic speed at 500 yards
-Penetration of US steel helmet through one side at 500 yards
-Penetration of .135-inch steel plate at 500 yards
-Accuracy and ballistics equal to M2 ball ammunition (.30-06 Garand)
-Wounding ability equal to M1 Carbine

It has more than enough firepower and considering it is the most popular cartridge for assault style long rifles with semi-automatic capabilities, it should be limited to single shot use only.

@dahermit: So let me get this straight; because there are so many guns out there already there's no need for new guns? Is that really what you are saying? This is more of that 'all or nothing' argument.

@LucifersPen so you know what Google is. Congratulations. Thats nothing compared to a 408 cheytac. .408 caliber necked down cartridge with a maximum effective range of 2.5 miles. With a bullet diamater of .408 inches it is a necked down .505 Gibbs, its parent cartridge. It has a 1 in 13 Right hand twist At 305 grains it averages 3,500 feet per second registering a 8,295 ft lbf. Thats 63,817 psi. That's just off the top of my head. You don't know jack about guns compared to me. It's my job to know more about guns and gun laws than you. Use Google to fact check me.

@jayneonacobb: Oooo, you're such a "man".

@LucifersPen that's not what I'm saying, having a gun doesn't make you a man. Being a man make a you one. What I'm demonstrating is my superior knowledge on this subject. I am, afterall, an expert in the field. You are not.

you won't get guns out of your society any more than you will bibles.

@LeighShelton are you an American citizen? If not you don't have a right to this debate as you have no right to vote here. All of your arguments are moot if you are not a citizen of my country.

@jayneonacobb we are looking for wisdom anywhere we can find it... Where are you coming from?

@Freedompath I'm an American. I have a right to participate in this debate. I also have a degree in the field of gunsmithing, the highest degree possible in the field from the most prestigious school for the science. I was and am required to stay up to date on all US gun laws. That makes me an expert in the field of guns. That means in function, operation and legality. That's where I'm coming from.

@jayneonacobb I want to be very serious here...up until we broached this gun issue I found you to have common sense and you seemed like a reasonable person, but I can only hope that you are protecting your profession somehow and are just fearful of loosing it! Because, you have run off the rails with your gun defense! IT IS NOT coming from a place of reason...that is all I know...the GUN, is YOU...YOU are the GUN? And, I suspect that you would defend your gun...until death! Hopefully, I am wrong here, but you have revealed yourself pretty clearly! You know...it's that word thing!!

I just blocked two gun nuts @Freedompath as there as obsessed as religious people and I came here to get away from people I can't reason with.

@LeighShelton it is distressing...I do perceive a problem here...I simply do not think he can see how deeply he is imbedded with his idealogy. No that is not reasoning. I will keep him for now and see...I am taking into account his age...

that's fair enough also take into account the age of this last school killer.

@Freedompath that's your opinion. I've supplied logical, rational and factual arguments against gun control that coincide with the bill of rights. Your feelings on this matter are moot. The fact is that the data does not support your position. I've demonstrated this numerous times, but I am dismissed because of peoples feelings about guns. You're entitled to your opinion, you're not entitled to assert that opinion as fact. That's how objectivity works, by leaving your biases and feelings at the door.

@jayneonacobb you have much to learn (hopefully) my friend.

@Freedompath about the gun laws? not if they stop changing them I don't.

@jayneonacobb you have proved nothing with 'tone deaf' facts! Facts, always requires ACTIONS that makes good sense? And for me, I will always error on the side of preservation of my 'fellowman.'

Already have them. Freedom is a good thing. "arms" means all weapons and armaments. I own body armor because of the second amendments acknowledgement of my right to defend my self, family and property.

you should get a minefield and a few howitzers. you can never be too safe.imagine if you decided to offend like people do obviously. how hard would it be to stop you? rights are an illusion.

@jayneonacobb why are you so afraid of your fellow man...you did not say wild animals from living in the wild!

@Freedompath because people are stupid, unpredictable and dangerous. Have you not seen the world we live in?

@jayneonacobb THAT, is the would that YOU have created for yourself....that is not the world I live in and never has been!

@Freedompath well, I'm not responsible for others actions. If you look at the news you will see that the world you live in is full of dangerous people. Your world is still the same one as mine, regardless of your world view.

@jayneonacobb I respond to each person that I meet, where he is at...in his developmental stage of life. You cannot go too wrong when you come at people from that angle. I do realize that you have not had the years of experiences that I have had and I am trying to impart some of what I have learned to you. If you can find a grain of wisdom, there, good...if not that is ok, too! But, I don"t have...nor do i share your fear of my fellow man...that is one of your/my, FACT things! From my experience, this fear will not serve you well...into your future...unless you are one out of the majority. That is my experience!

@Freedompath I don't fear people, I fear what they are capable of. Statistically speeking I have a better chance of being struck by lightning the being a victim of a crazy person. I'm just saying that I also own a fire extinguisher, and politicians are as crazy as you can get.

@jayneonacobb it is the 'fear'...that I am addressing! Given, just the right 'trigger,' your 'fear' can hurt someone! And sometimes, fear is triggered, out of a misunderstanding...but can be deadly just the same! Example, 'road rage!'