I'm not a libertarian. I don't identify with any political party because I agree that a house divided can not stand.

And there was a time not so long ago when the facts supported conservatives. Conservatism has moved further from facts leaving many people who would otherwise be conservative on the left of politics.

@RobAnybody Yeah, I was originally registered to vote as a republican. I saw hoe the party was changing and so i changed my registration.

Modern conservatives seem to go more with subjective reality these days. Just add religion to that and it means whatever you want it to mean.

@snytiger6 Australian conservatives have gone much the same way. It's depressing to see how the party that was once the anchor from which we could swing a fairer society has become a bunch of hateful loons you wouldn't put in charge of a car boot sale.

What facts supported conservatism?

Why thank you, I resemble that. I have known a few real conservatives who had high I.Q's. There are many of them, though they mostly keep to themselves as they have not been treated well by their fellow conservatives. Everyone has a point of view, we are now so fractured that almost anything gets by as fact or reason. This will slow and come to an end when those who hold these perspectives find they do not work. Conservatism as it is now practiced is not sustainable, it has to change so fast just to keep ahead of those who are finding this out for the first time. I sure hope this line of thought is correct as if we are not heading on a good path (in ways other than political) we are in for a really bad time.

I would say most humans are within a hair of each other's intelligence and our upbringing is everything as to how we view the world

@markdevenish Really? Get out much?

What, and whose, rights are you referring to? Historically, progressives have led in extending rights to the disenfranchised. Ending slavery, suffrage, minority inclusion, lgbtq movements are all progressive.

@Levi_Hinton thank you for that. That's litterally why I am here as well. It seems an appropriate venue for intellectual debate.

My experience is that conservatives are only interested in preserving the rights of those who agree with them. People who disagree with them generally don't count and aren't "worthy" of their consideration.

So conservatives don't go to college? Or are they such warriors that it's too hard to "indoctrinate" them?

@Piece2YourPuzzle I have two degrees. I just didn't drink the koolaid.

@snytiger6 then why do I support your right to free speech?

@jayneonacobb So the majority of conservative collegians don't drink the Koolaid?

@Piece2YourPuzzle not the liberal koolaid if they remain conservative or become so as I did.

@TheInterlooper I agree, I do mean progressive liberals, but most liberals identify as progressive in my experience. I would actually consider my self a classical liberal, but today that means conservative. Democrats did found the KKK afterall.

@TheInterloper It's an easy tactic to paint any ideology by it's extreme component and then only attack that. What I stated is historically true. A perception of some extreme doesn't change that. It also doesn't aid in discussing the pro and cons of any ideology.

so long as the "rights" you seek are promoting the common good I'll support you. the moment they do not I object strenuously

@markdevenish I like your conviction.

@Hugh the democrats created the KKK. UC Berkley over the last few years. College students blocking white students from attending classes to "protest racism." Anti white "progressives" all over YouTube and the rest of the internet. White guilt/privilage. Privilage in general. This obsession with racial diversity from progressives while they protest intilectual diversity. Need i go on?

@jayneonacobb And those Democrats went to join which party?

@Hugh you want to see what a progressive extremist looks like, go to UCB for a conservative speaker. You'll see the vast majority protesting and often violently so those people's right to speak at a venue that paid for them to do so.

@Roadster democrats founded the KKK and supported segregation. Currently they crusade for made uo gender pronouns to be used. I'm NYC you can be fined for not using someone's made up word. Liberals also tend to want to take away the right to free speech and the right to self defense.

@Piece2YourPuzzle the Democratic one, as they were democrats. They didn't decide one day that republicans might end up more conservative in the future than democrats. You're argument is not an argument.

@jayneonacobb Nooooooo. The racist Dems you speak of switched to the Republican party because they were more accepted there. Do you have any facts or evidence of anything or do you base everything solely on your opinion? You seem to do that a lot. Just like in the thread with Chris Rock where I said I had no idea what you're talking about. My argument is not an argument? What planet are you from?

@Piece2YourPuzzle you arent presenting an argument half the time.

@jayneonacobb I was generalizing. Not talking about you specifically.

@jayneonacobb and that is why people say you are trolling. I am sure you know that southen Democrats were the conservative party at that time in history. Using that ridiculous argument, as if they were progressives or liberals, is trolling.

@Roadster I didn't say that, you did. I said that the democrats founded the KKK. They did, that's a fact. Sure they may have been conservative by today's standards, but that was their position back then. The North didn't really want slavery to end either you know. The civil war did not start or continue because of slavery. It started because the South wanted to secede from the North. That's an historical fact.

@snytiger6 I don't know many conservatives who dismiss anyone's data or logical argument, unless it's about religion, and even then they just say "agree to disagree" and leave it at that. I don't know many liberals who are that accepting.

@jayneonacobb 1) Your comments on Democrats came out of no where to tell me they started the KKK in my response about progressives progressing rights. Why did you feel the sudden need to inform me of that fact since it is orthogonal to anything we were discussing?
2) Your "fact" is wrong. Slavery is specifically one of only 2 topics discussed consistently in the articles on succession by the southern states.
[civilwar.org]

@Roadster secession was why we went to war. The reasons for the secession were not the cause of the war, the secession was. The democrats were considering their actions to be progressive at the time of the founding of the KKK. That means that progressive in a political sense is purely subjective to those who believe they are progressive. Sometimes bigotry is used as a base for so called progress. Like it is being used now by progressives. Evidenced by countless sources reporting on the left's views and actions. Look up regressive left on youtube. You will find all the evidence you need to prove that the leftists are often racist and bigoted.

@jayneoacobb That is a pretty convoluted bit of logic you have going on there.

1. The reasons for the succession are reasons for the war. No reason for succession means no succession means no war.
2. The Democrats were the conservative party up to the civil war. They kinda fractured during the war and reformed after. The KKK was very much about keeping the status quo and slavery which was the conservative stance.
3. The regressive left is a perjorative term made up by the likes of PragerU to try to sell this kind of bullshit by painting the left with a broad brush defined by only the most extreme elements.
4. These are pretty typical troll arguments that ignore history and use common terminology to make things appear other than they are. You mix leftist, liberal, progressive, Democrat and ignore any historical anchors that would show where these are differentiated. Using perjorative terms like regressive left just insures that searches will turn up PragerU and other far right bullshit is also a troll tactic.

So am I.

45 ?

@markdevenish I will not say his name. I will only refer to him as a number. Or call him that cheeto-crusted con man.

@TheInterlooper I don't treat him like anything. I just refuse to say his name. Just like I refuse to say the "n" word. There are some words so vile that I will not speak.

@TheInterlooper I am familiar. Voldemort was fictional. That asshole is all too real.

@markdevenish i would just like to say ...liberals are better looking than conservatives period......thank you and good night

@mangro truth here

I'm libertarian (small "L" not the party) and I don't worship Ayn Rand and have no opinion on Rachel Carson. I'm also fervently anti-conservative Republican.

As time passes, more people are seeing that Ayn Rand was a bit nutty, and that Rachael Carson was giving legitimate warnings. It is a shame she died so young (of cancer).

@snytiger6 I discovered Libertarianism while attending early "Brights" meetings (before they went online only). I wondered, same as others here, how could someone be so conservative and yet non-theistic. One guy wanted me to read the greatest book ever "Atlas Shrugged". It was the longest, stupidest and pure idealistic books I have ever read. Many of them swear by it.

Just curious to know how you define "progressive"?

@KKGator In a traditional sense, I probably would be considered "progressive" in that I'm very much in support of equality and making things better for people but in the current political atmosphere, progressive means something a little different which is using government to make everything equal even when it doesn't make things better, adds to an already enormous bureaucracy, and involves itself in things that shouldn't involve the government at all.

@RottenArsenal Thank you for answering my question.

@KKGator surely that means forward thinking for the COMMON good