Both my sisters are non-denominational Christians, are well educated, and well read. They are heavily involved in charity work, and do not wear the Christian label for attention.
I have trouble expressing my logic to them before they discount it due to the fact that they believe I lack bible knowledge (which compared to them I definitely do). I will often say I do not trust a book that is 2000 years old to be the key to eternal life, possess absolute truth, and be the word of God. They rely heavily on ancient historians, but I feel like these historians aren't trustworthy or are merely contrived in order to put some Christians' minds at ease. The shear amount of time that has elapsed, number of interpretations, and the outlandish claims were enough for me to discount Christianity.
I'm curious, what logical and rational arguments have you all presented to discount the authenticity of the bible? Also, how do you refute peoples claims to ancient historians justifying portions of the bible?
They are your sisters...why not just agree to disagree & respect each other uietly.........surely other issues, like caring for aging parents, will arise and you will need each other.
I agree with those who recommend a better understanding of the Bible as a work of literature and in its historical context, not as 'inspired' (obviously). There are two quotes that come to mind regarding the miraculous stories and inspired prohpets found in any so-called holy book. First, Carl Sagan's famous "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." And the all-too-sensible observation by my avatar, Thomas Paine, in his essay, The Age of Reason: “It is a contradiction in terms and ideas, to call anything a revelation that comes to us at second-hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication — after this, it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner; for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him.”
If you are a non-believer, did you get there through rational thought and thorough analysis of the question (deity, or no deity?); or, do you just not have it inside you to have deep and abiding faith in something/someone whose existence has never been proven? I simply don't believe, any more than I believe in space aliens. Now, if someone shows me evidence of either, real evidence, then I'll reconsider my position. I don't think you need to "defend" your non-belief, it is what it is, period, end of story.
On the question of the Bible's authenticity, it actually doesn't matter much. So what if the characters in the Bible existed or not? What if they actually believed in godly miracles or not? It doesn't prove of disprove the existence of God. Think about how Socrates was executed. One of the reasons was for heresy against the gods of Athens. His execution is a historical fact. What does that say about the existence of the gods he spoke out against? Nothing. Nothing at all. In the same way, just because Jesus died for worshiping the wrong god at the wrong time, it doesn't mean that the god he worshiped ever existed.
I find it helps immensely to start out these conversations with “I think you are a moral and bright person and I see all the good you do in the world.” This is because they are taught that their morality comes from the book and to see challenges to the Bible as challenges to them personally. It also makes it easier to joke. Depending on how well you know them and if they appreciate humor you could say “but that book has so many glaring holes and condones slavery.” Etc. Or if they appreciate humor I’ve said “whoever wrote it was sniffing glue for real.”
If your sisters are constantly trying to prove to you the existence of God, I feel bad for you. You just have to find a way to make them understand that they are wasting their time and that they should just respect your views. On the other hand if you are the one trying to push atheism in the family, I'd say it's a waste of time as well.
I disagree. You never know when a seed planted will bloom. Planting little genuine seeds of doubt is better than trying to convince in one sitting. Or talk about how great “universe in a nutshell” or Lawrence kraus’s Book or physics for people in a rush.
We agree. I was merely suggesting not to be pushy about it. Sometimes it's just better to let it go for the sake of a peaceful relationship.
Ask your girls why the ancient Sumerian tablets say the same exact thing that the Book of Genesis says, but yet the tablets are hundreds of years older than the Bible. Tell them that the Bible is fake news from when Abraham stole the Sumerian documents to write Genesis. The tablets speak about astronomical events. The authors wanted to explain these events to the Sumerians but needed to do so in simple terms. So they used the "In the beginning God (meaning the sun) created heaven and earth," meaning planet Heaven and planet Earth or more to the point - moon Heaven and moon Earth. Why Heaven and Earth? Because those were the two moons having organic life at the time.
Ugh. I also don't defend my non belief. My usual reply is... when I have my own divine epiphany, I'll get back to you.
My standard argument is that it is not moral to own another human being as property. Something that the majority of the world will agree with. Because of this fact alone I can discount a book that contains guidelines on how to take slaves as having any moral standing and therefore I wish to have no part of it.
I have numerous others but this is usually my first one because the majority of people will agree that owning people is not morally justifiable.
It's funny how the Bible never claims, for itself, to be the word of God. But believers claim it's the word of God.
Is that true? That’s interesting....
I just tell them to keep their thoughts to themselves and I will do the same if there is any respect there at all. if not I take the piss.
You don't - You don't ever have to go there. I don't argue with people who have closed minds its a mugs game and no on ever wins and it does't help anything. -Be kind - leave them with their beliefs and have a yourself nice and easy life doing what you want to do- I don't see what anyone gets out of trying to change people - We all need to learn for ourselves or it isn't in our ownership.
I disagree. I think planting seeds is very important. Plant seeds of doubt. Plant seeds of kindness, open mindedness. Very small gestures can change people’s lives and impact us all. Perhaps a person you touched will run into me one day soon, and have an open minded discussion never before possible if you hadn’t gently nudged them that direction.
Dealing with family members is always a problem when there is disagreement. Eventually it comes down to "What is more important, your beliefs or your family." This is a two way street. It can be said of you and it can be said of them. Even though Troy had been written about for centuries it was considered myth until Schlieman found the ruins. For many, the Bible is absolute truth, for many others it is just the record of a marginalized group of zealots who genocided their way into their "god given" homeland. While there is no actual proof of an Exodus or the actual existence of Jesus, I tend to believe that events and people of antiquity actually happened/existed although I have less faith in their claims. It all comes down to how you and your sisters agree to disagree. It's OK for faith people to have doubts, that is how they can gain more proof. The same is true for you. It's OK for you to doubt your sisters belief and it is OK for you to not have blind faith in this. After all, this is an agnostics board not an atheist forum, nor is it a haven for true believers. Trust your own knowing and forgive them their trespasses for they know not what they do.
Jesus is a racist bigot who preached division and rewarded ignorance and stands to torture those who exercises free speech and free expression by fire for non belief.
Most people do not know what I'm talking about but I will try to define it. I have knowledge of only 2 types of reality.
The simple explanation is that we have tangible proof of objective reality while subjective reality deals more with "what if" and "let's suppose." Religion is all subjective. It has no choice to be anything else but subjective. This is because it has no proof and is faith based. Faith means nothing and proves nothing. If you have "faith" it simply means that you believe. Your mind is made up without evidence.
The lines of objective and subjective reality may cross at times in order to make advances in science or discovery, but this does not apply to the bible. The bible is static and will never be any more than what it is right now. You may prove by the bible that there was a Jericho and also see this in history, but you can never prove that the walls came tumbling down. Believers continue to think that you can. Why? It's because the bible said so. This is not a fact or proof of anything.
When objective and subjective reality cross there has to be something present called "logic." This means rather than take it as fact that "Elijah was caught up into heaven" you have to ask yourself would this be a likely event? Probably not.
Believers for the most part think that their religion is the right one. It is very important for them to do this. Christianity seems more right to them than Islam, etc. Is it logical? Not really. With all the religious claims in the world it is more logical to say that they are all wrong. There is no one true religion. Just the fantasies of minds. Most often the religion that you belong to is the one you were raised up in. Sometimes it is a decision the person has made later due to faulty logic.
You are essentially telling your sisters that you think that all they hold dear is wrong. These are CORE beliefs, beliefs that one uses to define ones self and self worth, if you attack these you attack them personally. Try a different approach, ask them why they believe what they believe, plant a seed, there is also an area to look into called "street epistemology" which is a very benign way of approaching these things.
I believe I read where science is starting to believe through testing that memories and thoughts might be inherited. If this is so, many maybe cannot determine for themselves, within reason, that the bible is not god's word. The other fact is that people with strong family bonds are not willing to say, my mother and father, grandmothers and grandfathers were wrong about god. It is not in their self-interest. I believe portions of the bible are historical facts. Is it a black or white thing? As there are so many browns in this world(we need more, hehe), there are owe so many greys.