Since we cannot actually talk to the dog, there is a human that is interpreting the results and determining that the dog feels less pain.

@JeffB umm, the dogs were elite athletes at the top of the sport of Dog Agility, their trainers/handlers were earning a damn fine living from teaching/writing/lecturing, and the dogs were high-drive champions retired because of their injuries, who returned to winning competition because of accupuncture. This has been widely known and accepted for over a decade in animal sports medicine...you should get out more

@AnneWimsey "you should get out more" ?so stop with personal insults. You and I should be able to be civil to each other, even if there are things I'm missing.
To address your point. You sad it cannot be placebo because it works on dogs. I said that it might be just working on the owners of those dogs, since they are the ones reporting it. How can an owner know that the recovery would not have happened if they did nothing? The fact that they believe it doesn't mean anything since people believe weird things. Future more, it's been studies and showed no effect.
My point is that testimony is flawed evidence for these types of claims. I don't know you but I'm sure I can find a health claim that is backed by testimonies that you would not believe. So why believe these?

@AnneWimsey any thoughts on [skeptvet.com]

@JeffB I Know these people, and their dogs....have Seen first- hand the results, and as one who has owned multiple dogs at a time over 40 years, I can attest dogs do not do placebo effect. I have had accupuncture help me tremendously with Achilles tendon when 2 doctors told me they could not help me, but i know you would dismiss that. The reason i tried the accupuncture was seeing these dogs return to successfuk competition.

@AnneWimsey the only way to have a conversation about, well anything, is to address each other's points.
Dog placebo
You made a point about how it cannot be placebo because it works on dogs. I responded to that! I.e. the placebo effect might be coming from the humans reporting on the dogs conduction and not the dogs. You didn't respond to that point, except by repeating the that did don't do placebo. Since I didn't say they did, it's sorta of a Strawman.

Testimonies of the efficacy of alternative medicine
It's not that "I will dismiss that" no one should accept only testimonial evidence as proof of any extraordinary claim. We don't about God and miracles for the same reasons. They don't have to even be lying. They could just misinterpreted correlation / causation, or any number of things. That is why we need science. On this, it's been studies and the results are negative. Worse than that, negative results have been interpreted as positive in acupuncture journals. To be clear anecdotes are fine but not if that's all we have.

@JeffB 21 obstacles in 31.1 s3conds?

@AnneWimsey I'm sorry if I'm dense here, but I'm missing the context of that last comment.

IMO Jeff is on the correct side of this Anne. I trained dog owners professionally for 15 years on problem solving through exacting obedience. My biggest hurdle was convincing the owners that their dogs don't have a thought process like a human does. I have heard thousands of testimonials from dog owners about their dogs feelings and desires, and not a one of them would have 'held water'. Trust me when I tell you that canine acupuncture was and is 100% for the benefit of the owners, not their dogs.

How many of the injured champions received acupuncture, and then did not return to competition? Did the ones that did return also receive standard medical care for their injuries?

@JeffB That's usually a winning time for a high-level Agility run at the World Games.

@AnneWimsey I kind of figured that it was something like that, but that doesn't help me understand why you are quoting a stat with a question mark after.

@JeffB uuummmmmmm spell-check....ask it!

@AnneWimsey sigh. I'm dyslexic, so if I misspelled something, I wouldn't even notice.
Regardless, I guess I'll end this here since you seems to be trying to troll over having a conversation. Good luck with everything.

@JeffB ROFLMAO that you grill me about a question mark, then state you never notice such things, then call me a troll...........you, my dear, obviously need more than luck.....

@AnneWimsey I didn't grill you, I asked you what point you were making. I've been politely attempting to engage you on your point of view, even after you came out of the gate insulting me. And almost none of your responses were with evidence or even a counter argument. Your statistic looked random and I simply asked how it fits into the conversation ( or what I thought was a conversation). Instead of explaining, you comment with something just as encryptic. Sense you seem to be able to articulate well when you are trying to insult, I assume your goal was not to illuminate, but to frustrate, i.e. trolling

I get it, not every one wants to engage or likes challenges to their point of view. That's fine, but why respond at all? I'm sure you have a pithy insult that will clear it up for us.

@JeffB evidenceother than flapping gums???....numerous articles in JAMA & The Lancet, to name Only English language peer-reviewed journals, 5,000 +years of millions (billions?) of Chinese observation and experimentation, plus at least a decade of American animal results, real results, and you are busy questioning a "?" in a post I made...i think this speaks for itself. You insult yourself with your petulance...."piffy"??????

@AnneWimsey sorry, didn't catch autocorrect on "pithy" but yes, you did well on the insults.

So no acknowledgement or counter on the dog placebo... Just going to move on to other points.. got it.

On numerous article in peer reviewed journals.
There are! We agree on that. But there are also ones that show no results. You get that allot with stuff like this. Same thing happened for studies on psychic powers, for example.

On 5000+ years on Chinese observations.
Just because a practice is old and still going on doesn't mean it works. Read up on eating "dragon bones". Maybe someone can correct me, but as I understand it, China has had a up and down relationships with accupuncture. Even outlawing it at times.

On Decades of Americans animal results.
Do you consider the American Veterinary Medical Association to be a bunch of quacks? Because they rejected a petition for acupuncture specialty on the grounds that it was unscientific. [avma.org]

You present your side as if it's unthinkable for reasonable people to question the efficiency of accupuncture, though there seems to be a lot of reasonable people questioning it. Can you agree that it's at least controversial?

Your a hippy dippy flower child.

@Tominator I'm ok with that.

i would like to know what you did

As long as it wasn't prayer that you did, I can't really say that I care what you did.
Thanks for your comment though. ?

@zblaze was definitely not prayer!

Hi Atheist. "agnosticism, philosophy, religion" You sneaked those in. Why ?

Tell that to people who have had needles snapped off in their skin

The studies show it cannot beat placebo.

Tis

Hey @SimonMorgan1, that sounds super unfortunate!! Yikes.
That would sure as hell turn me off of acupuncture, not that I'm a fan.
But it might be a case of an inexperienced or incompetent acupuncturist.
One rotten apply yadda yadda...

@scurry yeah but like Jeff said it's a placebo

@SimonMorgan1 maybe, but if it helps some people then it doesn't really matter if it real or not, at lease not to them.

@SimonMorgan1 that is not a good thing but it doesnt mean its not effective. surgeons leave scapels and sponges in people- no different

Acupuncture is quackery just as much as prayer is.

@SimonMoran really? Since the "needles", flexible & thin as human hair, are only inserted 1/4" , I doubt it! Sources?

@JeffB what studies? In dogs it is Incredibly effectiv, and no dog suffers from placebo or psychosomatic effects...not in their wheelhouse!