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Has there been such a thing as "moral progress" in the history of mankind?

Question 1: Has there been such a thing as "moral progress" in the history of mankind?

For all those who answer "yes":
Question 2: Only in Western countries? Or in other parts of the world too ? (China, India, Africa, Arab countries?).

Question 3: What was the reason /the cause for this moral progress? (Reasoning? economic progress? secularization? democracy?)

Matias 8 Apr 7
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20 comments

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1

Q1: Yes. There has not been much improvement in following one's better nature.

Q2: Throughout all parts of the world. Few things of this fundamental magnitude remain isolated for long.

Q3: I say it's part of the evolutionary process. Evolution works through generations and, it seems to me, that every four or five generational passes creates an advance in social and human growth.

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I'm only going to respond to Question 2. Why would you think any progress would happen only in Western countries????? This may not be what you intended, but it almost sounds like the argument that has been presented that 'civilization' is a Western phenonemon -- and a White one, at that -- when there is significant evidence to the contrary. Or am I missing the point of the question?

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What is "Moral" has changed. Burning witches is still moral for some. They can only get away with it in those countries that provide the legal opportunity.

I don't care what people think. I care how they behave. But, not killing someone is not an indicator of the persons moral precepts and how they are promulgated to their offspring. I still prefer the not-killing part.

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Stephen Pinker has done the research about lots of this.
But, the spread of fascism, russia, china, islam,..., indicates we are still in deep shit.

@Matias Thanks for the comment::: Correct that He did not do the "research." He did do the compilation. Whether or not it is received by others as valid does not make it invalid. As we have learned during our lifetimes, many who propose a different viewpoint will be vilified.

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Yes and no

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Challenging but one really needs to have a definition and indicator of what identifies moral progress. Then a means of measurement in order to create an empirical answer rather than subjective conjecture. An existentialist would say yes compared to the aristocratic and oligarchic preferences in Medieval Europe but a pacifist would say no due to the development of advanced weaponary.

@Matias This is why we need measures in place because the question is with regard to morality not pacivity.

@Matias we need to define what constitutes moral progress. Is it measurable? Is it subjective? Is abortion moral? Is factory farming moral? Is arms manufacturing moral? Is gay marriage moral? Many while argue for both sides, therefore to be able to measure progress we need a consensus baseline to measure against.

@Matias "I do not see any possibility how "morality" could be quantified." Other than as is demonstrated by how people behave.

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Definitely the greatest moral progress in Europe was the reformation and then the enlightenment.

Islamic countries appear to have regressed since the days of the Ottoman empire

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It all depends on how you define progress.

If you look at ancient America, there were a lot of civilizations that built stone cities, without the use og metal tools. However in every case in doing do they pretty much destroyed their surrounding environment. So, many tribes chose living in harmony with nature. Which society was actually more progressed? Was it those who changed their environment and inadvertently destroyed it, or those who chose to live in harmony with their environment?

I would say progress doesn't matter because some bastard group of thugs will come along and destroy those who live in harmony.

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  1. Yes, a tremendous amount of it.
  2. In most countries.
  3. Economic progress, Capitalism, and Democracy. For centuries, the only way to obtain wealth was to take it from someone else, then with the industrial revolution, wealth could be created by producing goods people wanted to buy. There was no reason to prey on your neighbor and take his wealth. It could be created much more easily by producing products your neighbor wanted to buy.
BD66 Level 8 Apr 7, 2019
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Moral progress happens. Then it faulters. Rinse, wash, repeat.

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The goals of the Enlightenment failed in the 20th Century.

Leo Strauss said:
"...a society which, was accustomed to understand itself in terms of a universal purpose, cannot lose faith in that purpose without becoming completely bewildered."

Culture lost purpose...I think to a large extent utility was transvalued by culture into 'purpose', god's death left a vacuum in thought

cava Level 7 Apr 7, 2019

A+

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I think that there are two questions here not one, since by moral progress do you mean, are humans getting better at following moral codes, or are we developing better moral codes.

If it is the first, then no, because that is about human nature which only changes on evolutionary time scales, and which indeed, with many of the selective pressures which made us moral when we were apes living on the African plains removed or reduced, may go backwards. ( For example now that we have medicine, which means that injuries are less dangerous, we can afford to be more violent, since the injuries we cause and the injuries we suffer in retaliation are less likely to kill or disable.)

If it is the second then maybe, ( but you have first to say what you consider "progress", which could be very subjective and not the same everywhere. )

@Matias Yes you may call them norms or values if you wish, but the difference is that "codes" ,implies something coming from culture as oppossed to something coming from our evolved nature, which was the distinction I was was making, but the difference is small so I am happy with those.

And yes, to your second point that is a very good summing of what I meant by subjective.

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Humankind shows a history of ebb and flow in relation to moral progress. When we have moral progress, it is due to multiple factors, chief among them norms of treating all with full dignity and respect. Oter factors include education, norms and institutions which foster critical thinking, the free exchange of ideas, minimization of formal social stratification.

I think all those things are part of a single factor called social evolution. I shorten even that to just evolution.

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This is actually a good question. Yes there has been progress in some areas. Not all areas and not enough. I do think as a whole the world is better now than it was in the past, not in every area but in most. Not sure if that is moral progress or what you want to call it. Less starvation, more civil rights better access to medical care and education. More social awareness and overall quality of life is better. Is that moral progress? Not sure about the moral part.

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Not since the phrase moral progress was coined.

1of5 Level 8 Apr 7, 2019
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Yes, no and all of the above.

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Define what constitutes "moral", and "moral progress" in your opinion. Its a vague catch-all term that may mean many things to many people. Until we have a common understanding of what we are discussing, an intelligent discussion may not be possible.

That's just it, isn't it?
Any definition of "moral progress" is going to be completely subjective.

@KKGator Yes. My thumbs up isn't working again.

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Moral progress is tied to economic largess, education, shared heritage and many other positive factors. The sad thing is moral decay reverses many of these same gains due to war, lack of education, greed, selfishness etc. Humans think technology somehow defines progress, I think technology allows room, time and the opportunity for progress and moral action. So yes there has been moral progress as well as moral decay. My definition of morality is action supporting the physical, mental and psychological well being of humans.

Quarm Level 6 Apr 7, 2019

Yes I also think that technology creates the wealth needed to fund education, which is one of the driving forces of moral growth. While the two of them together drive aspiration which is the other main one.

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No.

There is no such thing as "moral progress".
Even if there were, humans are completely incapable of it.

I really have a problem with anyone who wants to discuss (or pontificate)
about "morality".
Morality is a completely subjective concept.
What one person may believe to be "moral", another person would find that particular belief completely appalling.

Morals are also completely changeable from one culture, or time period, to
another.

I agree with your last statement but find your contention we are incapable of it odd. Is a subjective concept somehow invisible or without result? If we are incapable of moral progress what are we capable of? Are morals in the context of rules of behavior for the health of a society or community of no value?

@Quarm No. I'd prefer anarchy than having to abide by rules created by others.

@KKGator So within that Anarchy would you kill those who represented a barrier to your wants? Would your "tribe" or group stand above all others to the point were these others would be as a rule prey?

@Quarm I don't have a "tribe". No one is "above" anyone else.

@KKGator So define Anarchy for me from the perspective of the world. What do you see happening if this world existed? Do you see a world were with zero rules humans finding peace or are you speaking to the idea of you and your family living separate from the rest of the world? As much as I might not like many of the rules of law I do not see a world with millions of people operating without the rule of law a very healthy place to live for anyone.

@Quarm There are too many people on this rock. I'm okay with eliminating most of them. If I'm in that number, I'm okay with that, too.
I don't value humanity at all. We are a scourge.

@KKGator I agree with that. I daydream about a "The Stand" like scenario or even better The Quite Earth.

@Quarm I am always hoping for an asteroid strike.

@Matias Slavery still exists. It's never really been abolished.
Sure, there may be laws about it, but that doesn't mean it's gone.
It takes lots of different forms, too.
It doesn't matter whether I think it's "okay" or not. I also don't have slaves.
What many people consider "progress" (moral or otherwise) is also completely subjective.

@Matias I'm not going to answer your question. Hypotheticals aren't reasonable, and there is no "right" answer.

@Matias I think there is a very "right" answer to your last question. But that is my POV on it. The fact is morality is subjective. In many cultures throughout History owning slaves was perfectly moral within that culture. Too me though that makes communal morality for all humans so vital to the continuation of our species. The very basis for culture and society is cooperation. In the individual focused world of America people seem to either not care or not know that so much of what makes their world viable only exists due to a shared moral code and cooperation between people. History shows that when cultures become spoiled they fall apart usually through a combination of interior stresses and outside pressure. One thing I find depressing about this site and so many others is how people speak to the idea that the only thing that matters is their perspective, their world view and damn the rest. As much as humanity is fucked up its also beautiful and cool and hilarious. I hope we get off of this rock and colonize Mars and worlds beyond. I imagine a future were "humanity" is one people. Delusional? Sure but I find the nihilism of fuck humanity far worse.

@Quarm Yes there are some useful aspects, even cute aspects, to the weed. It's still an invasive weed which tends to destroy the natural order. Then it moves on to colonize some other field. I'm not of the opinion we should fuck up Mars or prolong our demise but that's not how it will go. As it happens, I think we are going to go long before we have the chance to fuck up our Moon, let alone Mars. Climate is natures way to hold us in check and it's triggered by our waste volume. That has been breached.

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You might need to define moral progress for any answer to be meaningful. Do you mean, are people becoming inherently more moral, or do you mean, are societies creating more just conditions for people to live in, etc.

skado Level 9 Apr 7, 2019

Agreed.

Thumbs up!

@Matias Intellectually, I share your definitions and agree with your conclusions. Subjectively sometimes (usually when I watch too much news) it feels to me like we have moral progress in a "twice nothing is still nothing", "two steps up and one step down" sort of way. And the steps are generational in scope. Sometimes, multi-generational. It's a slow, tedious process and it is hard to hope in within the scope of a single lifetime.

@mordant Unsure why but I thought you might really appreciate this song. It's one of the most intellectual and human pieces I've ever heard.

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