And THERE is a huge part of the argument against abortion. It's made by people who say "Where would I be if my mother had chosen abortion?" Well. Guess what? THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU! It's about HER!

Only an ignorant uses abortion as birth control. Sexual education is in order

I have no issue with that. A woman who has had many abortions is probably better off not bringing any more kids into the world.

@FreethoughtKaty IUD

Not being born at all sounds way easier than all this.

You realize that the beginning of your comment and the end appear to have been written by two different people? You completely contradicted yourself...

Fair enough JeffMurray though I don't believe I contradict myself. There are limitations on all freedoms that we have.

But, I failed to properly explain my point of view. At 21 weeks, I don't see it as an abortion. It would be a birth if the fetus could survive outside the womb. At that point we're no longer talking about a cluster of cells or a zygote the size of an acorn but rather an organism that could potentially live on its own.

There HAS to be some cut-off point or am I wrong? Should an abortion be allowed at 9 months while the mother is going into labor? What about once the baby is outside the mother but still connected by the umbilical cord? Logically, there must be a point that we can agree it would be wrong to terminate the pregnancy. I chose 21 weeks based on current medical advances that give a fetus born at that point a reasonable likelihood of survival.

@Charles1971 "I don't believe that I nor anyone else, including the government or religion, has any say in the medical decisions of another person."
"I do think that abortions should only take place before a point in which the fetus could potentially survive outside the womb"

Those two statements are contradictory. Either no one should have a say in another person's medical decisions, or there is a time when one can be told they can't make the medical decision they wish. They cannot coexist. So when you say there are limitations on freedoms (like how you can't scream fire in a crowded building) because your freedom will infringe on the freedoms of others, you are essentially saying that taking away the freedom for a woman to abort after 21 weeks is to protect the freedom of the person inside her? I believe the legal cutoff is when the offspring takes a breath. The laws may be location dependant, I'm not sure. But once there is no more additional risk to the mother to carry than to abort, like if the baby is already out of her just connected by the cord, and the cord has to be cut either way, killing the baby on the table would be an obvious over-stepping of the argument for a woman's right to choose.

But let's use your 21 week rule for argument's sake. What steps as a society are we willing to take to protect a fetus a woman wants to abort that we won't let her because it's after the cut off? Can we stop her from riding rollercoasters? How about smoking, drinking, or taking fetotoxic (legal) drugs? Can we lock her in a padded room? Force her to get, or stop her from getting a c-section whenever she wants? (I mean, if she's told she can't have an abortion because the fetus could survive on its own, can she just say, "Well, then, cut it out of me." ) If she goes on a hunger strike, can we tie her down and feed her through a tube?

@JeffMurray... I answered your question. I didn't come here to argue abortion. I've done this before and it's an exhausting and fruitless debate. I told you my view. You don't have to like it.

@Charles1971 Is not that I don't like your view it's that you are not supporting it. If you want to have opinions that are contradictory and ill supported, that's fine. Lots of people do. But if you wish to actually examine your beliefs the way you probably did regarding religion, I'd be more than happy to bounce ideas back and forth and challenge you on some things. Good luck either way.

@JeffMurray My point is that although I support the freedom of choice, as with all freedoms, there are limitations. I strongly support 1st Amendment rights, but freedom of speech and expression have limitations. And yes, if those limitations are violated then it will be the government and the law that will be the authority that will step in put a halt to such violations.

And thus, even with the freedom of choice over abortion, there should be limitations. You stated "I believe the legal cutoff is when the offspring takes a breath." My view is that the cutoff is when the offspring CAN take a breath (even with assistance) and live.

@Charles1971 That's fine that that's your position, but you should definitely not describe yourself pro-choice, as you are actively advocating a partial ban on abortion.

@Charles1971 Also, it's disingenuous to try to compare my definition of when the baby takes a breath with yours as if they're just different points on the same scale, they are not. To claim that they are is like saying you can abort an air strike after you've already dropped the bombs.

@JeffMurray... Then I suppose I don't believe in free speech since I think there should be limitations on what is allowed. I do not think that I should be legally allowed to put up a billboard near your house that says "Jeff Murray is a rapist and a child molester."

Personally, it just seems like you are trying to be argumentative. And your air strike/bomb analogy is silly and makes no sense. And I think breathing is actually important. It tends to be one of the hallmarks that distinguishes the living from the dead.

@Charles1971 Correct, you don't believe in free speech. Neither do I. And if you want to not believe in a woman's freedom to choose as well, that's up to you. And you can call it argumentative, but I have a problem seeing someone label himself as one thing when he's clearly not. Furthermore, because there are other people and factors in the 'obtaining an abortion' freedom, it is not on the same footing as the freedom of speech. By putting the 21-week restriction on it, you necessarily also put other restrictions in place as well. If you don't know what TRAP laws are, I beg you to go read about them. Seriously, if you read about them and don't agree that if legislators were doing shit like that to subvert your rights you'd be outraged, I will shut the fuck up after this post. They use what rational people like you feel are fair, common-sense restrictions to completely deny a woman her rights. One example is when pro-life organizations set up "abortion clinics" in areas that have 21-week laws on the books, only to lure women in and lie to them about the reason they need to postpone their procedure (most often they "have a fever" ). They string them along until their 21-week mark and then the woman is no longer legally allowed to get an abortion. So no, restrictions on free speech are not the same as restrictions on abortion. Not allowing you to scream "fire" in a crowded building doesn't get parlayed into you not being allowed to scream "fire" while playing Call of Duty.

And yes, my analogy was correlative. You comparing 'baby took a breath' with 'fetus could potentially breathe and live outside of the womb' as points on a 'when you can abort scale' is analogous to comparing 'bombs could drop' and 'bombs already dropped' as both being on a 'when you can abort scale'.

So you do not believe in a woman's right to choose?

@JeffMurray Sorry, I wasn't clear. Yes she does have the choice. Maybe she's want to keep it, maybe she wouldn't want to, could be a permanent reminder of the ordeal she's been through. Totally her decision.

The morning after pill doesn't work in the second and third trimester. So, who determines if the woman's reason is a good reason? You're basically saying you do not believe in a woman's right to choose.

Of course prevention is the way....but if we "select" no to educate the people we will never see the end of this problem.

Dear, a fetus has no the rights of a person. Period.

You don't understand the argument. I'm pro choice. Calm down now.

Abortion should be covered by the insurance. Now, those who say "" Why should my taxes be used to solve the problem.when the woman can't pay for the surgery."....Well, if you know how much it costs to support a child (welfare) during 18 years...you will want your taxes to pay for the abortion.

@DUCHESSA Furthermore, if the woman doesn't have insurance, it should be covered by the state.

I don't think we should really be supporting our arguments with phrases that start with, "In ancient times".

They would say, "Let's try to elect this guy to the US Senate."

Don't you think as "enough reason" the fact the woman doesn't want to become a mother...then or ever?

Yes of course.

Are you aware that pills fails and condoms break?

I didn't think about that when I posted, condoms slip off too. All three are also a reason to abort.

@egt1977 So then why even mention them? If anyone can just say, "Uh, the condom slipped off" and be granted an abortion we can just assume everyone will say they used some prevention method and allow unrestricted access.