@SeaGreenEyez Excellent point! The 5th commandment--that parents must be honored--promotes a primitive and twisted sense of duty. Honor is earned and can never be demanded.

@SeaGreenEyez 100% perent in agreement with you here.
My 'mother' abused me in almost every known way short of actually killing me, when she was 76 she literally begged my forgiveness repeatedly but my memories and nightmares of the horrors I lived through were far more stronger and powerful than my inner forgiving person, thus I denied her forgiveness every single time and I have no regrets in doing so and never will have regrets either.
My philosophy is, " Do the crime, do the time and do NOT expect forgiveness under any circumstances."

Exactly Sir, I totally agree with you.

Also, it is a way for abusive parents/guardians to keep abusing and mistreating their kid(s)/minor(s) repetitively and asking their god for forgiveness, but never apologizing to said kid(s). :/

Forgiveness, is their license to continue with business as usual.

@JimG I feel that way about forgiveness for just about everything.

In most cases, those who are forgiven don't change their behavior.
They take forgiveness as a pass.
I don't feel the need to forgive anyone of anything. I'm not the one who did
the wrong thing. Forgiving someone who has wronged me does NOTHING
for me.

None of those cops deserve any kind of forgiveness.
They ALL knew exactly what they were doing.
They could have stopped, gotten off George Floyd, and not murdered him.
But they didn't.
Why should they be forgiven for murdering an innocent, unarmed man?
They shouldn't.
Not now, not ever.

@KKGator However, imo, there are some instances where forgiveness can be given, e.g. when someone makes, unconsciously, an error, etc, and unintentionally says or does something to upset another/others.
BUT that forgiveness MUST come only AFTER the apology is rendered.

@Triphid True, but the apologies mean nothing unless the behavior changes.
Which, I have found, it usually does not.

@KKGator I'm sorry. For whatever I did, will do or thinking about doing........

@SeaGreenEyez Hunt the bastards down like the rabid, mongrels they are.

I tried to say this in another post in this thread and it was misunderstood. So...

THERE ARE NO GOOD COPS. They are all evil. It is only a matter of degree. By pointing fingers at only one individual - and making statements like you just made about weaning out the bad cops, you are diminishing and underestimating the problem grotesquely. One cop gets be thought of as responsible for the problem when it is infact inherent to the cult, "the thin blue line", that is being a cop.

We need to stop thinking of this as a problem of just one individual... solvable by half measures. We need to change the whole system. Arresting and prosecuting one cop... makes that individual a martyr and a hero to other cops...and helps not at all.

And a hearty 'Amen' to your comment.
In most states it takes more training tome to be a barber than an officer.

@Alchemy Damn, that's blunt and a very extreme view. Yet something in my gut tells me it's a perspective that could be very close to the truth of it. I think what I mean is that even if it not true that every cop is evil, it might be best to deal with them from the perspective that they are all flawed individuals (confining it to their professional capacity, of course) and training them and making regulations for them on that assumption.

@brentan That's how the police are viewing it. All black men are evil. Police are an extension of the military and are authoritarian. They have a credo that they live by and funny as it seems, white police use white privilege in making arrests ie. someone's not allowed to speak in a certain way to them, etc. I am intelligently arrogant and I've had a few run ins with the police that could've turned out for the worse. I consider myself lucky to make it through the many racist experiences I've encountered in my travels across America. I haven't forgiven but moved on instead. Someone's trying to kick off the race war and the outcome isn't good. I do wonder sometimes WWJD? LOL!!!

@IAJO163 I'm sure you're right! I think the attitude comes down right from the top. WWJD? I think his answer was to stay the hell away from social reform and concentrate on individuals. For me in this situation, that means people will have to do it themselves, unless they're happy to wait for the never-arriving Kingdom of God to sort things out. Somebody here made a point about it taking both black and white people to kick up am almighty storm of protest over this for real change to happen. Will they? I don't know.

@Alchemy No good cops? I agree with @brentan that this is an extreme position. One might as well say there are no good soldiers, sailors and airmen, or that there are no good firefighters, or that there are no good people, period! Relatives and friends of mine have served as peace officers, and they are good people, so far as I am in a position to judge, and they see nothing heroic or defensible in the killing of George Floyd.

I agree with you that there is a much deeper problem here--even said so in my post--but criminal behavior, whether by civilians or police, is, by definition, conducted at the level of the individual, and justice may only be meted out by the legal system to one perpetrator at a time.

..

@Alchemy Not all cops are evil .There are a good many compassionate ones .This is only one of many examples.

@IAJO163 Indeed, what would Jesus do? One thing's for sure, Jesus wasn't a blue-eyed aryan! I would prefer we ask what would Ghandi or MLK do? Better to have more contemporary examples, than one who is largely fictional, don't you think?

@brentan They are and police are joining too. I think this is a moment of change in one form or another. It has made people ignore the virus protocol so another problem may come down the line but at least people are being heard.

@brentan, @p-nullifidian That would be nice but in this society, where does the majority of belief fall?

@IAJO163 I've got my fingers crossed (but I'm not holding my breath) that this is the tipping point. I think my worst fear is that the government will play along with the change while some new evil genius dreams up another way to destroy black America like they did with drugs in the 60s.

@IAJO163 Unfortunately, too many in the 'majority' may be CINOs, and view their church as their 'in-group.' What does their congregation stand for? What do they accept? And what do they condemn?

Many view Jesus as their battlefield general. They seem happy on Sunday morning marching in step as they loudly sing Luther's battle hymn, "Onward Christian Soldiers!" The contrasting image of a 'gentle Jesus meek and mild' belongs, in the eyes of many, with bleeding heart liberalism.

@brentan This will require the police to take a hard look at procedure. The police could've easily diffused the situation by not believing that a counterfeit twenty dollar bill was part of a major operation. The store owner could've deposited it with his normal deposit and the bank would've just replaced it. The store owner is middle eastern and has learned how to live and survive the "white way" as many others who migrate to this country learn. White is right and black is bad.

@IAJO163 I can't agree with that in principle. A crime is a crime, no matter who commits it. It's the way the police responded to suspicion of a crime that was so horribly immoral and illegal.

@IAJO163 Calling the cops, it seems to me, is a major issue. The central dispatcher has a role to play. Do dispatchers pass the call on to the cops without qualifying the caller, or do they engage with them to determine the veracity of the call? In other words, are dispatchers trained to perceive bias? Or are the cops just sent to roll-in on somebody who passes a bad 20, or is barbecueing while black, or swimming while black, or whatever? If a white woman of privilege in Central Park can weaponize the adjective "African American" over her damn dog, anybody can. And the dispatchers who send the cops can happily wash their hands of what happens next.

If I were to pull a fire alarm at a school or any public place, the alarms would sound and the fire department would show up quickly, but they wouldn't come in with guns drawn. Yet, some idiot or racist or whatever can call 911 and convince a police dispatcher to believe there is a life threatening (racially based) emergency. And when the police roll-in, they don't come 'armed' with water hoses.

@p-nullifidian Therefore the need for procedural change. This didn't start out as a racial issue. It became one. I've stated that the world is in turmoil over a $20 bill. Police need de-escalation training for minor non violent crimes. We need police. We just need them to be better.

@SeaGreenEyez My concern is that people will bring the junk into the courtroom in an attempt to soften the anger, and try to reduce sentencing.

@itsmedammit Yep, way too many times do we see or hear of a Blatantly obvious Criminal getting some Shyster Lawyer to plead that his/her Client " had a terrible childhood/ Mummy toilet trained him/her far too early/Daddy refused to buy him/her the toys, etc, they wanted/their Client came from a disfunctional/broken home, etc," the excuses put forward are almost endless and always repitious to say the least.
So I'm wondering what feeble excuse/s his Shyster Lawyer will come up with to attempt to explain away his patently obvious hatred of an Afro-American that drove him to MURDER a Human Being over a counterfeit $20 bill?
Will it be something like, " Well, Your Honour, when my Client was a young child he wanted to buy a pack of gum, a flavour that he loved and enjoyed so much, but an Afro-American child bought the last remaining pack on the shelf at the store near where he lived," or will it be, "Your Honour, my Client was playing Basketball in the School Playground and an Afro-American child beat him at Basketball regularly."
Maybe even the Shyster will come up with something from the bible, i.e. a passage saying that " those of non-white skins are lesser beings than those with white skins and should only ever be considered as little more than Slaves to be punished as their white Masters see fit."
In my honest opinion, the Blinded Lady of Justice may be Fair and True but there are ever so many of those who act/serve on her behalf are so corrupt and rotten that they could make a Charnel House smell like the most expensive perfume known to mankind.

I think you are supporting and promoting a fallacy. Killer cops are not the result of one unethical, sociopathic cop...but cop culture which encourages and promotes this type of thing. The cop that killed Mr. Floyd was doing his job...only too well. He is only marginally more despicable than the cops around him, who were on duty and tasked with keeping the peace and PREVENTING crime. I would suggest that most people who become cops are decent people, at the beginning ...but that they start being indoctrinated into cop culture the day they get hired and it goes down hill until you see the results in incidents like this. The video of this incident shows two things -1. the cop deliberately ignored safe procedures and a plethora of training. 2. that he enjoyed the cries of pain and desperation from Mr. Lloyd...in other words, probably after he became a cop he found the sadist inside himself and made the choice, gave himself permission, to give that part of himself free reign on the job..
He deserves life in jail as a serial offender...or the death penalty...though I don't generally support the death penalty.

@SeaGreenEyez: You misunderstood my meaning completely and blatently know nothing about me.

My beloved first husband, now deceased, was black and my children are all of color and referred to as black all the time. I have been in the trenches fighting prejudice, bigotry, and racism for over 40 years. I have been spit on, beaten, and nearly killed, all because I chose to love, honor and marry a black man.
The worst has been my fear for my children. I have had to live night and day with the reality that my children will be and are targets for police violence. I have been called upon, repeatedly, to put my body between them and those with violent racist intent. A trip to Sally 's Beauty Supply store ends in my having to fight bigots to keep my children alive!

My oldest son is 6'8" tall. He has been over 5 feet tall, and worn a men's size 10 shoe since he was 9 years old and in the 3rd grade. He is seen as a threat by most men...and cops, I worry about cops killing him every moment he is out of my sight. Because no matter how they start out...a cop is a cop, is a cop.

Further, I have never had an interaction with a cop that ended in my favor. As an horrifically abused child I became a chronic runaway by the age of 6. The cops would find me and bring me back to my mother so she could break my flippin' bones in an attempt to "teach" me not to do it again...I would beg them not to take me back...and they had to have known that they were taking me home to be abused... and they did and they did and they did.

I consider cops as a group to be the scum of the earth... the lowest level of human life... at best paid bullies...often wanton murderers.
I have found, however, that many people, especially brown folk and women, go into being a cop believing they will be able to do something good for humanity. I have also seen these same folks turn into racists and bigots... my point was not that cops are good people... but that ALL of them are evil...because it takes so little time for them to go from good appearing/sounding humans to corrupt evil gits.

There is something inherent to being a cop that turns everyone who becomes a cop into an evil goon. I strongly suspect the mechanism or process at play is the same phenomenon found in people that join a religious cult...that there is an unavoidable indoctrination into cop culture and that they come to see themselves as seperate from, and above, humanity. We will never be safe from cops until we find out how to correct this problem.

@SeaGreenEyez: not that this will make a bit of difference but...

You must not be aware of the history regarding cops killing black people...their defense is almost always "I was just doing my job"!!!! and juries buy it over and over and let them off with no punishment... this was what the Rodney King Riots in the 90s were about. The jury found all the cops who ganged up on and beat Rodney King nearly to death... NOT GUILTY because they were just doing their job. Even though the scene of his beating was caught on video...just like this atrocity.

Ive been telling anybody that would listen...that this justification holds no weight in regards to Mr. Lloyd's death because I know that these cops were all trained to specifically NOT do this! It goes against all policy. Choke holds and the like PREDICTABLY lead to death. The fact that this cretin put his knee into Mr. Lloyd's throat is an open declaration of his intent to disregard the man's life and MURDER the man. I will say it for the millionth time. The officer in this case committed premeditated murder. He was trained and absolutely knew what he was doing. There is no excuse. The light charges levied against him...an insult to all humanity and truth.

Further, some of y'all have a completely different frame of reference and standards than I do if you think the phrase "just doing his job" was me say that the behavior was excusable...Nay - it is one of the most grievous insuIts I give. I was referencing the Nuremberg Defense and calling the man out as akin to a Nazi...the caveat that he did it too well was meant to imply that this individual was worse than the average Nazi murder...because he looked like he enjoyed what he was doing...

[en.m.wikipedia.org]

Lastly, prosecuting all of these officers to the fullest extent of the law is a minimal requirement for some sense of justice to be achieved...but please don't assume it will change anything in the long run... we have been here, done this before. The individuals on this video will, perhaps, be offered up as a sacrifice to bring peace...but nothing will change as a result. Other cops will see them as misunderstood martyrs and use this as an excuse to accidentally on purpose forget to wear their cameras and be more malicious, more lethal, in the future. To alter the situation the whole system needs to be changed way more than most folks are willing to understand...

@SeaGreenEye alrighty then! At this point I will say this - I will happily stand behind every word of the original posts you were responding to. I have re-read my post carefully. I think it conveys my intended meaning exceedingly well including my use of the phrase that you took out of context and trunkated "The cop that killed Mr. Floyd was doing his job...only too well." For you to imply that I was diminishing his responsibility or trying to excuse his behaviors - misleading and manipulative.
As to your comment concerning not needing to know me or my story -other than you impling that I was ignorant of facts that I know intimately, your absolutely right. Color me confused, however, as I thought this site was about sharing ideas and creating new relationships. And there we go...

@Alchemy I read one of your responses hear and it sounds like you have had to endure things a human being should never have to endure. Very sorry to hear that.

I also know two younger men who have become police officers, one white, one a minority, both are good people and I don't appreciate this statement ""There is something inherent to being a cop that turns everyone who becomes a cop into an evil goon." My neighbor's daughter is a police officer and is a decent person as well, though I don't know her as I know the other two.

I do know that living through a horrible experience, as you have, can alter a person's future view of similar situations and people. But please know not all police are bad people.

@Alchemy The problem is the law. Imagine a cop doing his job only to see the criminal hire a good lawyer and get off. After so many times they can't take it anymore and fall to the dark side of getting justice their own way. I have police in the family and their frustration is expressed at every gathering. We need to overhaul the laws in this country. Had I been a cop, I would've confiscated the $20 bill and let the guy walk. It wasn't worth the paperwork.

Perhaps, but why not invoke the bible, as Christians so often do, and invoke the " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" instead?

@Triphid I've no wish to wield a blunted sword

@Cyklone Neither do I by any means.
But does NOT their bible tell them, 'An eye for an Eye.....etc.?'
And I'd lay even money bets that those 4 cops claim to be Christians, though probably NOT practising ones in the sense of the word but, imo, for the 'convenience' of it instead.

@Triphid True, it is convenient and I know the bible well enough to toss their bullshit back. Although they are condemned from within their own professed beliefs, I'd rather try to get my point across without drawing upon something I hold in contempt. Just personal preference.

@Cyklone However, there are times when the only way to fight fire is with fire as the ages old adage says.
And in my opinion so many Christians, Christians of Convenience or not, have been using their Christian 'fire' to their advantages when it comes to the Law and Legal Systems.
Hence, imho, we NEED to remove Religion from the Courts and Politics permanently and eternally thus returning Justice to being TRUE and FAIR Justice for one and all.

@Triphid no argument here.

Civilization is hard to achieve.

So many attempts at peaceful protests were demonized, criticized and not good enough for wyte supremacists and conservturds... fck em... they reaped what they sewed.