I am curious: what is free will for you? Because it sounds like in your conception, free will requires for the individual to be eternal, unborn and immortal so that the choices made at every step of the way matter. It looks like you are focusing on the effect of the choices and not in the fact that there is a choice and a choice is made.

@Rodatheist not so, read it carefully. I am saying most mistake the decision making process as being a free will. it is a physical decision by our brains to prolong life as long as we can, that's hardwired by evolution for safety. And since we never had a hand in that decision by parents, to be born, and a god didn't have any doing it it, Free will is just hoping to make the best decision, that is pretty subjective.

@HerbertNewsam Each of those decisions is an act of free will. Why we need to make the decision and what is the consequence of the decision does not seem to be relevant for the fact that there is a decision made.

@Rodatheist I just don't complicate it. When in a forced decision caused by our reality(which is every single decision we have to make. Because matter keeps going forward, there is no reverse and the outcome of any choice is actually moot. I think it is a forced decision caused by evolution living in a very dangerous environment with the outcome of the decision being death no matter which path was chosen to take, so it is subjective to any data presented. If a decision requires any data whether it is good or bad makes no difference, it is subjective to that data. In the famous words of mankind "Oh god i hope it works" Well the god has never showed and don't expect one ever will. If every decision we have to make here is subject to our reality then that supposed freedom has lots of strings attached to it. It really seems to be subjective..... some evolution trickery going on....The decisions are an evolved process of our safety net. Always looking for be best thing or safest thing, we base our decisions on these things, more subjectivity than free will. Sure we can be idiots and jump off a cliff to say my freewill allowed that. nope just stupid. That decision was long removed by evolution. Can we take our own lives yup, that's not free will, that is escaping rigors of life. If the rigors of life are so bad to force actions like that, it is also subjective , is not a bad thing, it is just a thing. The pressures of life is
constantly moving us forward. Every decision we make is subjective to our being here. I just don't get this freewill shit i guess...all i see is strings attached by all the other beings here(not just people, even viruses) and we are all subjective to entropy. But i do get the mentality behind it, If we have free will, we are special.....

Although absolutely none of us was given the choice of being conceived nor born we do have the choice, i.e. Free Will, as to what we do with that life do we not?

@Triphid yes if the strings are removed, they aren't. I still say it is simply the misunderstanding of our brains decision making process. It baffles us so it must be free will.

@HerbertNewsam That is your take on the matter but I'm sure you can also see that others, including myself as well, do not have the same take on it as do you.
We, well a larger number of us imo that is, make decisions for ourselves using the reasoning and logic, etc, that is inherent in our cerebral matter almost every single moment of our lives.
Though some elements of our daily existences are governed solely by the Autonomic Nervous System over which, btw, we have no control, our conscious minds/brains are working, well for most of us anyway, continuously during our waking hours whether realize it or not.
For example, a person can use the 'free will,' so to speak, of their own mind to decide what to wear on any particular day/ocassion, a man can decide, also by means of his own 'free will' whether or not he shall shave on a Monday/Tuesday or whatever or simply forsake shaving and grow a beard.
One can also make the choice/decision using that same freedom of will to either become religious or not, is that not so?
IF you are acquainting actual Free Will with the religious concept as per the 'gift' by God so stated in the bible then, imo, you may be confusing the definitions completely.

@Triphid Well what we wear is always subjective to how we feel. We use lots of incoming data to decide things whether we are conscious or as we sleep. Everything we do is subjective to everything else, whether it is physically or mentally subjective. No i am not using the religious arguement. We are physical beings and are always subjective to our enviroment. Our mentalities are also just a physical result of our brains which is subjective to everything while we are alive. Death ends this experience

@HerbertNewsam But ultimately, most of us that is, we use our own minds via our 'free wiil/thought processes' to make such decisions as you mentioned.
Though, having said that, we must remember that there are those who are willing followers of the Fads and Trends of Fashion, etc, and only ever dress, etc, in accordance with such trends, etc, possibly because they either dread/fear being different to the rest of 'mob' or simply cannot encompass/comprehend, etc, the idea of being an indivual, etc.

Hello. What do you mean?

yes, I'd love to know also?

@Rodatheist Well, it is like this. You want to be naughty, you have a free will to be naughty but you know if you get caught for your naughtiness it may not have been worth being naughty in the first place.

@Jolanta A good counter-comment, but it can also be said that using one's free will to good things whilst knowing full well that the only 'price' is often resultant in NOT being rewarded, either immediately or in some imaginary After-life IS a very worthwhile thing also?

@Jolanta yes, I get it and I agree with you. Now, of course there is the choice to not be naughty and then live in painful regret of having lost a chance of doing something. Some say that it is better to ask fo forgiveness than to ask for permission.
But in the end, we agree that there is a choice and that we are free to choose.

@Rodatheist Well you know there is naughty and naughty.

@Jolanta Yup, Subjectivity rules

@Jolanta Oh yes. I remember some naughty times that still maintain a mental smile of satisfaction in my mind.

I believe that existing in any of these conceptions, the one governed by a god and the one governed by cause and effect, involve choices. Why would one not see that every moment a choice is made there is an exercise of free will?
Free will is obvious when one see the result of one’s choices. If I choose to kill someone, I may en up feeling remorse, and the only reason that remorse exists is that, back at the moment of my free choice, I could have chosen not to kill, regardless of who or what governs the universe.

@Rodatheist In the first case, we may 'think' we are making choices, but in a universe governed by an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god, our choices are scripted. It 'feels' like free will, but God's knowledge of what we 'did' in the future, means it has already been determined. We are 'predestined' to choose the path that has been preordained by God himself. No free will, just the illusion of it.

In the second case, the choice to take another life, with or without remorse, was prescribed by our genetics and our environment, determinants that we had no control over. The results of this choice are immaterial to the determinant causes that produced the effect.

As I indicated, I reject both premises, and choose the blue pill.

@p-nullifidian We walk a path. The path is predetermined. There is a fork on the path. The fork is predetermined. What lays ahead on each path is predetermined. Choice of one of the paths or the choice to sit there and do nothing, all ,are exercises in free will.

It matters if you want to understand yourself. If you choose to live a life devoid of self analysis, that is ok, and that is precisely what free will is.

@Rodatheist Only if it exists. It’s no more certain nor uncertain than a deferrable being.

@Geoffrey51 Ok then please let me know if you exist or not because I am an atheist and I don’t like to have conversations with non-existing beings.

@Rodatheist I probably don’t then.

Can you? If you were a racist from years of indoctrination and hated black people, could you pick your knee up off his neck? Some racists seem to change and become not racist over time, but that's still not proof of free will. They were most likely influenced by nature. How is nature free will? Can the scorpion stop being a scorpion and stinging other beings to nourish itself from eating them?

@Piece2YourPuzzle It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself and then you conclude that the behaviors you present are “still no proof” because they are influenced by nature.
The contradiction stems from, first, your assumption that a person that receives years of racist indoctrination could not pick the knee off the neck, and then you say that some racists manage to become not racists over time. So which is it?
And it looks like you believe that just because there is some capacity that the individual got from birth, that means it is not free will. That does not seem to be correct. The shape and form and functionality of the human brain is predetermined by nature. One of his functions is to be able of making choices, and that is free will. Tribalism may be innate, but the choice of not acting tribally, is free will.
And of course, an instinct in a lower form of life like a scorpion, is not a valid comparison to the reasoning of a complex brain like that of mammals.

@Rodatheist That's not a contradiction. Some racists become not racist over time from societal influence. Indoctrination is from society. They are just indoctrinated by society to change as they were from parts of society to be racist. There is no proof that they just magically make a choice one day to be racist or not be racist. They are influenced. Some aren't able to be influenced to not be racist anymore. They still are subject to their previous indoctrination. How is that proof of free will?

Because a person gets some capacity from birth like being athletic or having a certain body type, it pushes them towards certain careers or actions like playing sports or weight lifting or modeling etc. Some people have 160 IQ at the age of 5. Their capacity for learning is much more than an average person. What choice did they have in that? Most times those people aren't interested in something like sports. Maybe sometimes they are because their makeup also incorporates and steers them in that direction.

Mammals brains are more alike to reptilian brains than most people think. We have triune brains though. Two of those sections consist of mammalian AND reptilian. The scorpion reference is a reference to it acting within it's natural makeup. You hang around a scorpion and you are most likely going to get stung.

A function is proof of a function, not free will. Action is proof of action, not free will. A function is a purpose of a person or thing. In no way does it mean anything about free will. Acting in a tribal way or not depends on if that function of your brain is active. Once again, in no way does it mean anything about free will. Anyway, how can being tribal be innate, but then not being tribal not be innate? That's not logical. We have our own instincts too, just like a scorpion. How long do you have to reason with your complex brain to move out of the way of a moving object so you don't get hurt? That's the part of your reptilian brain. Primates are mammalian. How complex are their brains? They're a "lower life form" than we are.

It's all about nature and nurture. "Choices" are influenced by both. There is no escaping either.

@Piece2YourPuzzle I believe what you call indoctrination (which sounds ominous) is really only culture. We all receive our culture from our environment. Of course, you are Free To Choose any word you want to use to refer to the phenomenon.

Now, I grew up in a chauvinist culture that keeps women subjected to men; that is what my culture always told me, and then I learned about the alternative, and I learned about human rights and dignity, and now I choose not to seek that kind of relationship with women. It is free will because it is a choice. The choices to pick from may be the result of any combination of predetermined circumstances, but the moment one makes a choice from any of those options, that IS free will. Free will does not mean that you have to have at your disposition ALL the choices that ever can exist in the universe. And of course, a choice to choose from is, by definition, predetermined, but that does not negate the fact that there is an option and there is a process of deliberation and the arrival to a conclusion: a choice. Why do you need “proof” that such is a choice, is beyond me.
Mammalian brains have three parts and one resembles that of a reptile, of course, it is the product of evolution. Now, I don’t know what most people think about how reptilian the mammal brains are, but you arrive to the conclusion that mammal brains are more alike to reptilian brains and I think that warrants some references.
And as I keep reading your words about things that do not proof free will, I am wondering what do you think free will is.
One does not need to be free from the influence of nature and/or nurture to make a choice. The point of free will is to make the choice.
And now, you can exercise your free will and choose between answering to this or not. No further proof needed.

@Rodatheist Indoctrination just means, "teaching". Key word, "learned". Everything is learned or inherited. Learning is nurture. Just saying you're free to choose doesn't prove anything. Saying that doesn't move the needle in any direction.....at all. If there are predetermined circumstances then it's not really a choice. Predetermined means decided in advance. If past events were predetermined then any "choice" you make is based on that predetermined event. Meaning, it's cause and effect. You were led to "choose" a certain option. I just read an analogy that says if your life was rewound that you would be in the same exact position with the same exact mental state of mind with the same exact beliefs, thoughts, and desires at that point in time. It all leads to a logical point called now and it would still be the same "choices" from the cause that came before it. No matter how many times you would rewind your life, it would always be in the same state just as a video. Videos don't change simply because you rewind them.

A "choice" being "made" does not prove it was done with free will anymore than buying roses for your girlfriend or wife means you care about her. An action is just proof of an action. An action is not proof of free will. Free will isn't simply an action occurring. An option being presented is the same. A deliberation is the same. Thought is the same. You are stuck on thinking these things mean a choice being made is free will. They don't. You don't have to be free to make a choice............it doesn't mean you are making the choice of your own free will. It's an easy distinction to see.

It's in the title. "Human and reptile brains aren’t so different after all"
[massivesci.com]

Fear, fight or flight, anger, hunger, sex, territory...........all part of the reptilian part of our brains. It's all instinct. You made the argument that scorpions were lower instinct based life forms and it wasn't a valid comparison. It is.

how about--why would ppl of free will have a system of govt that will surely impoverish them & cause untold misery?

we are guided by information/data at all times. Every decision we make is dependent on data. The data controls us, we only use it...free will is a misunderstaning of our reality that it all comes down to a forced decision. Life is a process of forced decisions and to me that removes any so called freedom people want so desperately. I cannot see anthing free about it, just hard living.

If there is a choice between having to put up with a nasty boss and not having money to pay for the rent, how does choosing here gives you any kind of control?
The substitution of the term may yield a practical result to “understand”, bur it does not work in all situations. Perhaps that is why no one has seriously substituted one term for the other.
But, why so much aversion to concepts that are difficult to understand?

@Rodatheist

I'm not sure I understand what point you're making.

You may not want the job, but you can still choose to take it because the alternative is worse.

Even if I were to grant you that one has no choice then, it's all the same thing. My point is there is no total control. Whether it's internal control or external, sure that may vary from person to person, but bottom line is we can't have control over every aspect of our lives. So whether we have the "will" to want it, it may not be free for us to choose.

You can't choose to fall asleep at will, or just feel better at will when you're sick. Take whatever examples you want.

@Jetty it's free

A whale of an offer...

Thank god we have the choice to refuse offers!!

And why?

@Rodatheist because our minds develop an inner dialogue based on our conditions and it causes our perceptions to be jaded.

@JeffMesser It really does not matter how jaded are our perceptions. Once we make a choice based on them, that choice is an exercise on free will. And in fact, if you are conscious of how jaded are your perceptions and you choose not to make a choice, that is also an exercise on free will. Free will is the choice, and the basis on which we make the choice is irrelevant.

@Rodatheist nope. it's the illusion of free will. but you can only think things you have been taught and conditioned to think. all you really get to decide is if you'll be raising your hands during the coaster ride or not.

@JeffMesser I think it is too bad you can no longer tell that to Einstein, Kepler, Newton, Galileo, Mozart, Beethoven, Da Vinci and others because they would have a good laugh.

@TheMiddleWay Maybe, but just because we can't predict it doesn't mean it doesn't have a pattern. Quantum Mechanics and C.Theory describe things random to US, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I think to make a computer big enough to simulate, and therefore predict, the state of every particle in the universe - would take a computer as big as the universe. But I do believe that if every single particle, down to the Boson level and etc, could be say taken back 1000 years into the past and let go again, in the exact same state they were then. We would be typing this right now again, 1000 years later.

Again though, I don't see how we can "prove" it though, one way or another. Its more of a fun intellectual exercise! Our ego's won't let us really objectively analyze the issue. Where I only have a problem with it is when its used by the religious, and it makes me frankly feel violent. They use it to excuse the idea of a "loving god" that lets kids be born with cancer. They are assholes.

@TheMiddleWay I just looked up DEVS, it looks cool. We aren't on HULU and I'm wary of free trials, but maybe it will show up on Amazon Prime.

Interesting sideline to all this political crap. More militantly angry friends have contacted me several times now about help with "projects" they have. They know I play with dangerous science for fun. But I also believe that militant reactions to this stuff will not help, it just feeds the cycle.

I have some creative, and fairly amazingly powerful, ideas --- that I don't write about, nor even talk to my partner or friends about. Ways of using household items for gigantic results, and I just can't have the ideas even get out there.

But, its cathartic to at least think about.

My wildest hope? I hope AI saves us!

@TheMiddleWay Ah, they know I play with radiation - not just substances but devices that emit high energy beams of all sorts. Retired gamma ray tubes from anti-cancer usage and etc. And I play with very high voltages. Lasers that burn things (racks of them, not just a cool hot little pointer). And with chemicals some. And I'm creative, I am a Maker, who loves to hack things together. And I tend to think more strategically than tactically, about communities and infrastructure. Changes that would take communities months to recover from.

And . . . fortunately, I'm also a pacifist. Some years down the road maybe I'll write them down! So, I vent by thinking about them - and talking about it right now!

Ok - two more harmless things. A head wearable Wifi snooper and jammer, look at the device and it is knocked offline. I've decided I don't like that much V/m energy right on my forehead, but it was fun to make - see the evil smiley face on it? Makes it more powerful! And to the left of that is a wideband jammer I made.

What would happen if a suitcase with a strong gamma ray tube, capacitors and batteries were set next to . . . . ok I will shut up now.

@TheMiddleWay Were you teaching at college level recently then? It is hard these days, I was doing IT work in a rich kids school until Covid - and 1/2 my job has been being a cop. A residential school - so trying to manage internet usage/devices somewhat 24 hours a day is maddening. The kids are smart, sneaky and merciless. And, I have compassion and don't kill them because I remember that when I was 16 I would be doing the same thing!

I did come up with some fun things I tried on them, ways of using UV light reflected off the windows behind them to fuck with some of their gadgets. IP redirects to really hilarious websites. And etc. But again, I didn't get into tech to be a cop, so it gets old.