Date:
April 23, 2019
Source:
Johns Hopkins Medicine
Summary:
In a survey of thousands of people who reported having experienced personal encounters with God, researchers report that more than two-thirds of self-identified atheists shed that label after their encounter, regardless of whether it was spontaneous or while taking a psychedelic.
I can't wait to have this same study done on self-identified agnostics. I want to believe that we will not shift our perspective in as large numbers as atheist but wanting to believe doesn't make it so.
To quote the article. "Griffiths and the research team caution that the study relied on self-reported responses to a questionnaire, a method that carries substantial possibilities for biased or inaccurate responses among participants."
An important caveat!
Well some of them also think they now can fly.
time, place, and ticket admission costs please....lol
I took LSD as a teen. I thought I could talk to my car. .........And I could. .......
@TheMiddleWay And when you lose the argument, that's really bad.
@TheMiddleWay my car talks back and I argue with it. I hate being told what to do. If I don't want to wear a seatbelt, it should be my choice!
There are some profound experiences which humans can have, which are a real phenomenon, at least in the sense that dreams are a real phenomenon, and which have been consistent enough over time and throughout all cultures, that humans are perennially inclined to call "an encounter with God." This is a fact.
Now whether that thing we are calling God actually has the qualities and substance we attribute to it is a separate question, but the phenomenon has a long and remarkably consistent history in human experience. It is, at minimum, a real part of human nature, and, having been recorded in virtually all human cultures, at all periods of time in which humans have existed, it meets the rule of thumb for most likely being an adaptive trait.
So the question of whether God exists is not really a very useful, or even interesting, question. Certainly something exists that our species keeps referring to as "God". The more useful question is "What is God's nature"? An all-powerful person who created the universe, or an evolved aspect of our collective unconscious... or maybe something we've not begun to understand yet?
I especially like your last paragraph, and I would suggest that when speaking of ultimate reality the concept of existence is by no means understood. If God is “some-thing we’ve not begun to understand yet”, maybe our lack of understanding is because we are thinking in terms of “things” as being that which exists, when actually there are no things except in our minds.
I might read this if "psychedelics" was spelled properly, but....naaaah.....
@TheMiddleWay I don't do illiterate or sloppy, too bad so sad for you....
@TheMiddleWay yup, it's a blanket policy.
@TheMiddleWay ummm, wrong again, the subject of the sentence is "this", singular, so "was' is correct. "Psychedics" is in the subordinate clause, clearly indicated by the "if" preceeding it. Duuuhhhhh. I learned how to diagram sentences in 5th grade so that the subject would agree with the verb...you, not so much, nor can you read your own citation. Truly sad.....
@TheMiddleWay go read the part about subordinate clauses, indicated by a comma & "if", "but" or other qualifier. As usual, not getting the facts, just lazy skimming.
@TheMiddleWay you have no idea what a "subordinate clause" is, do you......pathetic.......
What exactly does self identified atheist mean...is there any other kind? What is more to the point is where were they on the belief spectrum before they identified as an atheist. I think the idea of someone like me, who has never believed, recanting that disbelief after some hallucinatory experience, is about as likely as me turning into a pumpkin!
And the diversity of atheists is vast. Personally i don't think we need a label. A-theists simply is the abscence of belief in gods. It has nothing to say on other areas of weird beliefs. Some atheists still believe there is fate, karma, some pull out the tarot cards or swear by the zodiac; some say they are Buddhist atheists and others believe in alien visitations and that world leaders are Lizard people. Are these the atheists to be dragged out for research? Give me the drugs and I'll do my own research!
No offence or bias or prejudice nor discrimination, intended in my view and response.
I am sure we have all heard same sex partners, answer these questions: were you born gay, lesbian, why didnt you come out all these times, etc
For me, I could trace my journey, alongside similar routes
I was born into a society that every one was and is expected to believe in something. Society frowns at 'nonblievers", mum and dad would not agree, but you must go to church on Sundays, jesus died to say your sins, your rewards await you in heaven, blah, blah
Moving to and living in a normal realistic environment and society, strengthed my believe in Science. Obviate needs to watch. Debunks the idea, only god can provide and save.
Hence, here, I am."out of the closet".
@TheMiddleWay I concede that I don’t know any more than the next person how I would definitely act...that is always going to be unknowable until after the fact. However, I know myself and my innermost thoughts regarding the existence of god ever since my childhood days, and if I had to bet money (something I never do), I’d say it would be nigh on impossible for me to reverse my lifelong held views, merely because I’d had some drug induced trip. Under the influence of mind altering drugs I’m sure I would be no different from anyone else, but that isn’t a permanent state of mind. Temporarily having the mind artificially confused is not the same thing as having one’s mind changed permanently.
@Marionville "and if I had to bet money (something I never do)"....lol.....Pick the Scottish woman! But with my father a Douglas and my mother a Mitchell, I hear ya!
I shed a lot of things after consuming psychedelics in my youth.
A+ Would dose again
So after people take a radically mind altering substance their minds are changed. What a huge f'ing surprise.
@TheMiddleWay Sam Harris described his feelings of an incredible sense of caring and love for his friend, and other mind-altering experiences while on psylosiban. If a psychodellic trip changes one's perspective or even their worldview, so be it. But this only makes one want to dig deeper into the mechanism or causes and effects taking place in the brain.
One thing seems obvious, mind-altering drugs don't appear to impart a particular doctrine, religion or theology. So far as we know, there isn't a Christian pill, or a Muslim pill, or a Hindu pill, or even an atheist pill.
Chemically modifying the natural state of your brain could make you believe you are the creator itself . . . . and why do the madmen land in insane asylums?
Fascinating! What is next? Christians encouraging the taking of psychedelics to eliminate atheistic thinking? Wouldn't that be a twist!
IMO, self-identified atheists run the gamut, from those who at one time were deeply religious to those who were raised without any concept of a deity. In other words, a range from the highly negative (in terms of their prior upbringing) to the relatively ambivalent. It would be interesting to delve deeper into the data, to see if there were any correlation with prior religious belief and retaining (or shedding) one's self-identified atheist label.
In that they run the gamut you're right. I would expect a difference between those who started in religious families and chose to become atheists, versus those who are atheist by default. Their parents were atheist and so they never had to make that choice or confront the self delusion.
btw, when I was young and irresponsible, I was young and irresponsible
In my opinion, this supports the theory that Theism is the product if hallucination.
@TheMiddleWay Hallucination wears off but imagination continues on.
Drug induced hallucinations has no bearing on reality.
@TheMiddleWay I will respond with a Carlin Quote.
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
I would assume the numbers would similar for agnostics with a slightly higher percentage do to less skepticism.
The take away... psychedelics are deeply moving! Some attribute it to external forces, some realize it's all internal, but just about all can agree that it's moving.
With me it was just the opposite...I shed Christian beliefs AFTER the Psychedelics...was leaning away from the Church as a teenager and the mind expansion sealed it.
I recent finished "How to Change Your Mind" by Michael Pollan (non-believer), a very good read.
I just finished it myself. Loved it. I did a lot of psychedelics back in the day, and I think that people don't have a word for what they experience when they see that there is more than our everyday reality.
I guess I’m part of the remaining 1/3.
@TheMiddleWay I’ve got a bachelors in math and philosophy. My switch to agnosticism was a philosophic move, and happened at least a decade later.
@TheMiddleWay After reading the Prolegomena to Any Future Metaphysics, I came to understand it was impossible to even understand God. The concept was itself impossible to conceive. Given that, the question of Gods existence became purely academic. I grew up in SLC around the mormons. I quickly became atheist in reaction to their pressure. That held sway for years.
Meanwhile on the reservation:
A charter was granted by the State of Oklahoma on October 10, 1918 placing the Peyote Ceremony on a basis of legal equality with other religions by providing Constitutional Protection through the establishment of a Native American Church. This is perhaps the most important cultural contribution by the Comanches to the lives of other Native American Indians.
Very little difference between an atheist and an agnostic. What this ridiculous study is trying to prove and show you is that the invisible man in the sky is real. Everybody knows that the cloud in the sky really does look like Jesus. They also know after taking a psychedelic that their dog turns into Jesus and he talks to you. There. Their must be something to it. I might start believing again tomorrow coz I found my car keys in the frige.
Yes, the first time you take psychedelics you will see god.
Explaining: You will have a fractal experience that will be overwhelming and with a oneness feeling, this people will call "to see god" It happens with most of people and everyone feels different.
And the theme of this experience can vary.
I knew a person that was tasting fruits at this time and felt the tongue dividing and tasting different tastes and dividing more and tasting more and so on.
I saw a person that were reading ancient books and felt a line of culture and information integrating him with all the humans that are directly or indirectly impacted by those texts.
I heard about people feeling that the whole mankind was one thing evolving and learning as a giant multicorporeal being.
But the experience is always fractal, is your mind looping over the same theme and gives the idea of an infinite and impossible to grasp complexity. If you are a believer or has tendencies for it, you can be convinced on spot. If you are a strong atheist you can understand and even associate this with natural themes.
And a lot of those atheists are "not affiliated with a religion" but still have mystical and religious beliefs.
@TheMiddleWay I know what the drug does and I know it is not something spiritual, and i know there is a biochemical explanation. But is wonderful at the same time.
And it is not only the vision, it is all sensations at the same time
@TheMiddleWay An thank you for the articles, very interesting