Animals who engage in homosexual acts, does not mean those animals are inherently gay. Take male fruit flies. In their first 30 minutes of life, they will try to copulate with any other fly, male or female. After a while, they learn to recognise the smell of virgin females, and focus on them.

Because all behavior is learned.

Human children typically do not experience sexual arousal until age 6 or after. So the claim that homosexuality is innate from birth seems odd when given scientific context.

@SCal - Many traits and abilities both physical and cognitive don't typically emerge until certain ages are reached. This does not mean that their development is learned and not innate from birth. The best predictor of which children will grow up to be gay although certainly not 100% accurate is a preference for cross gender play - i.e. boys who prefer to play with dolls, and girls who prefer to play with toy trucks. These preferences are not learned but are innate to the child. They have nothing to do with arousal nor with anything having to do with sex.

We do find research supporting the concept that sexual orientation has a physical or innate inborn basis. Within domestic sheep, it was found that a good deal of homosexual behavior occurred, but most rams that mounted other rams would also mount ewes. It was disvovered, however, that somewhere between 8% and 10% of rams would only mount other rams and would never mount ewes even when these ewes were in heat and most receptive to male advances. The brains of these gay rams were examined and were found to have physical features more closely resembling the brains of ewes than of straight rams.

Human studies found some similar findings fron MRI and PET scans of human brains. Among gay men, the sexually dimorphic features of human brains were discovered to be more like the typical female brain than like the brains of their fellow straight male. The same cross gender similarities in brain physiology was found to exist with women who were exclusively lesbian.

Other research also implies an innate inborn aspect of humans being gay. Research has found that the percentage of right handed males being gay increases with each older brother a male child has. Twin studies also indicate that something occurs during develop effecting the later sexual orientation of the twins, remembering that a trait does not need to be genetic to be physical.

@SCal May seem odd to the those that haven't studied this issue. Some non-human animals, as the clown fish, actually change their gender and mate with their offspring. There is no 'natural' way in nature. Things happen for whatever serves a purpose. Not all behavior is learned just ask those people that are gay if this is true? This sort of thinking plays in the hands of the anti-gay people. BTW, to some of us homosexuality is the same as gay.

@JackPedigo I have studied the issue. That's why its odd.

All consentual sexual relations are behaviors. You have a choice. Sexual arousal, again, is not innate and does not take place from birth. You learn over time what arouses you and the brain reinforces these ideas over time.

Telling me to ask a gay person simply shows your disconnect from the science of sexual arousal and human behavior. Most people have no clue how the brain works and why they do certain things. And again for your clarification, engaging in a homosexual act does not make one inherently biologically gay/homosexual. As is the case with the male fruit fly, who early on is simply confused. In other species these acts can be due to scarcity within an environment or to exert dominance.

@RussRAB
"Many traits and abilities both physical and cognitive don't typically emerge until certain ages are reached. This does not mean that their development is learned and not innate from birth."

Many? Name three.

"The best predictor of which children will grow up to be gay although certainly not 0% accurate is a preference for cross gender play - i.e. boys who prefer to play with dolls, and girls who prefer to play with toy trucks."

This is attributed to environment. Trucks and dolls as well as other children and parents are a part of the childs environment. To say that these behaviors are innate requires proof and studies which isolate these behaviors. None of which you have provided. I suspect these are just your opinions.

"Other research also implies..."

You do understand this statement is an admission that the studies you cite are not clear or conclusive, right? And in the case of goats or humans, there may be a preference, but the choice is still there. This is my entire point. I also stated below that our anatomy, dna, genome do determine some predispositions, but these predispositions do relegate one to a certain behavior or remove choice.

Good post, though.

@SCal I lived with an alcoholic and learned a lot about this disease. For some it is a disease they are born with and that has been proven. Some become addicted which is a different matter. I feel it may be on a small scale the same with the LGBTQ community. Enough said.

@SCal - Name 3 - Puberty, abstract thought processes, sexual attractions.

"This is attributed to environment". There has been and likely still is a great deal of debate about nuture  vs. nature on the topic of human sexual orientation. Some researchers have attempted to quantify percentages of how much effect nature has vs. that of nurture. The truth about cross gender play, however, is not in dispute and I did acknowledge that it is not 100% as an indicator. Plenty of parents attempted to encourage their sons to play with trucks instead of dolls and vice versa with their daughters who preferred trucks. Some parents could at times be downright abusive about it, but it did not change the child's preference of toys.

As an example, are you at all familiar with the 'Guevedoce' in the Dominican Republic (similar accurances have been observed in New Guinea and Turkey). Here is an article
[sciencealert.com]
Note the comment from those who have this condition that before they developed their male anatomy, they began feeling the urge to exhibit more typically male behaviors. When their transition does occur, they typically make the transition without incident. The individual interviewed in the article says he was happy when the change occurred because his external now matched his feelings internally. There is a condition with females which is understood (my understanding anyway) to be caused by an excess of male hormones during fetal development. The physical manifestations are an enlarged clitoris. These girls tend to be attracted to toys thought typical of boys and they also almost exclusi ely grow up to be attracted to other women. Then there is the case od David Reamer whose story is very sad and tragic. You can look up his case at Google if you are interested. These cases do support my assertion that to a large extent, gender identity and sexual orisntation are innate rather than learned.

"You do understand this statement is an admission that the studies you cite are not clear or conclusive, right?"  Yes, absolutely. The evidence is essentially correlation which is never absolute. Until we can find the definitive evidence proving how bundles of cells in the brain (or elsewhere) translated to feelings of preference and/or to behaviors, we will not have definitive proof. I can't say how scientist would even go about trying prove such a thing. In the mean time, however, we do have an increasing body of correlary evidence of physiological conditions matching with preferences, feelings, and behaviors. We should not ignore the evidence we have simply because it is not perfect.

As for behaviors, we can never separate choice from behavior in a civil society. But then, I don't believe we should define an individual's sexual orientation based on their behavior. We have more than enough examples of indivuduals who behave contrary to their orientation. For gay individuals, the motivation for doing so is often social acceptance, and for straight individuals it is typcally monetary. So someone who is gay will have attraction and automatic sexual responses to others of their same sex and someone who is straight will have these experiences with others of their opposite sex (other orientations can apply to their particular experiences).

@RussRAB

"Puberty, abstract thought processes, sexual attractions."

Puberty and attractions are not traits or abilities. Traits and abilities are the words you used. Abstract thought is an ability, but it's a learned ability, which crystalizes my original and consistent point. Credibility lost. I stopped reading after that.

Cheers.

@SCal - I see. You already have your mind made up, you don't like my response, and so you have justified closing your mind like a steal trap.

Got it!

I don`t see any support for your assumed position that it is all taught. Obviously, this is just an exercise for others, not you.

Got it!

[stanfordchildrens.org]

[sciencedirect.com]

@maturin1919 - There would be advantages with some people.

Sorry, and i'm going to try to keep my language decent, but, no. An infant does not learn to suckle because she/he saw someone else do it. B.F.Skinner held sway for a long time, with his behaviorist junk, but that's what it turned out to be, a theory that was junked. Sexual identity is inborn, just like handedness. Whether you are right, or left handed, I am certain that you did not choose it.
I will not go into much detail, but you can find much of it in "Evolution’s Rainbow, Diversity, Gender and Sexuality in Nature and People," by Joan Roughgarden
Homosexuality is present in 10% of humankind, it is seen in other mammals, even the "Macho" Rams of Dodge truck advertisements; in insect and bird life.

Not only did @BirdMan1 bust out some very good examples that disprove your theory, but the fact of the matter is that no one chooses anything- free will is an illusion.

@BirdMan1 Suckling is learned behavior. Babies suckle because they have a mouth and learn from their time in the womb to be nourished by a host. Also, no baby ever climbed up to a teat or prepped a bottle for suckling. So wrong there buddy. Suckling is indeed learned.

Nothing is inborn except our genome, dna and humanity. Sexuality and everything that comes from it is learned from environment. Your anatomy and the anatomy of those around you are a part of environment.

@JeffMurray I agree that free will is fake, but birdman is still incorrect. Babies are taught to suckle for their own good.

@BirdMan1 Also, if you are born right-handed, but are born with a deformed right hand; does that maje your use of the left hand inherrent? No, your body is a part of your interaction with the environment. Motor skills and hand coordination are definitely learned.

@Bobby9 Every consentual sexual relationship starts with a choice.

Your point about sexuality being inherent requires proof. Do you have any?

@BirdMan1 Also, I am well aware of the 10% of all species performing homosexual acts, but there is no proof that these animals are exclusively homosexual. The experiments only proved that they performed homosexual acts. These acts are many times due to a lack of a female mate, which once again denotes environment.

@Fred_Snerd The mother lays on her side and paws babies to her teats. Also, many kittens have to be taught to nurse.

Obviously I was talking about human babies. Cats can smell mothers milk and come out of the womb crawling and walking. Still learned behavior from being nourished in the womb, siblings and mom. Also trial and error. Not inherent.

@Bobby9 You are still under the illusion, that's okay. I've learned it's a waste of time to try to convince people of this fact. I should have known based on how hard it was for be to come to the realization, but I didn't.

@Fred_Snerd Involuntary reflexes, as stated in the video, are not instincts. They are natural body functions, as I explained.

Are you even reading or watching the shit you're posting while trying to be right?

Still wrong, though.

@SCal I believe they are actually taking about the motion of the month and the ability to produce negative pressure to obtain milk. That is not taught. I don't even know how you could teach that. Your claim, "Babies suckle because they have a mouth and learn from their time in the womb to be nourished by a host" doesn't hold water because they don't use their mouths in the womb for nourishment.

@JeffMurray ummm its a motor function. Its one of the things you use a mouth for.

My point does hold water unless you claim nothing is learned during time in the womb. Its also well known that many babies learn to suckle their thumb in the womb. Theres not much else to do in there.

@Fred_Snerd The Bill Nye video illustrates exactly what I stated. Sexuality is not as black and white as being born with it or inherent. Sexuality is learned, over time from ones environment.

An orgy is an environment.

@Fred_Snerd Predispositions due to our genome/dna are proven to be real.

That does not remove choice or learned behavior.

@Fred_Snerd

I don't know.

Are you saying that there are provable levels of gayness? Are you saying that a certain level of gayness removes your choice to ever choose otherwise?

@Fred_Snerd

Not much of a case.

You probably should rest.

Also, your non-answers are noted.

@Fred_Snerd

ummmm....?

be careful, your ignorance is showing

@SCal as a childbirth educator and a doula, as well as a mother, I tell you that you are wrong.
A healthy, fullterm infant innately suckles. The teaching is for mother, as many women in western society have never seen nursing close up, and need to learn the best positions and behaviors for their own health.
I've seen a baby suckle on a finger whilst still mainly inside mum, just her head born.

@reddhedd Thank you for your opinion. I disagree.

First, suckling with mouth is not even a behavior. The act of using ones mouth is a bodily function, because we have a mouth. Baby suckles thumb in the womb because there is nothing else baby can do in there. No food comes from the thumb, so suckling a teat for mom's milk is not innate, it's learned. Im sorry your credentials do not make you right. You are wrong.

The configuration of a human fetus puts babies hands near baby's face in the womb. The womb is the environment and baby is the only one in it. Baby learns to suckle objects in its mouth during this time by coincidence of body positioning in the womb environment. To say suckling for food is innate, when baby first suckles thumb for no food proves this thinking is fallacious. Baby learns this behavior in the womb environment.

Also, bodily functions are not behaviors. All behavior is learned. I've been pretty consistent and respectful with these statements and have given sound reasoning. Heart beats, sneezes, breathing and blinking are not innate behavior, they are bodily functions. Suckling with mouth falls in this category.

Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice experiment;
Go go to a working-class bar, the type of place where guys sweat blood all week to make rent. Then ask a bunch of big guys if any of them will have oral sex with you for a week's wages? See if your wife gets the same response? - Check data and pay the hospital bill.
Beer or wine, SUV or hybrid, vegetarian or meat is a lifestyle choice. Homosexuality is not.

@SCal Back when I was in college I was doing a paper about causes of homosexuality. In my library research I found a study out of the USSR (cane out in the1970's)that found a correlation between stress suffered by the mother in the second trimester of pregnancy and the child turning out to be gay.

Later studies have found correlations where environmental condeiotions move meta genetic switches which alter sexual orientation.

It may be true, but it is the environment experienced by the mother while the fetus is in development. By the time of birth sexual orientation is (pretty much) already hard wired into the child.

Develop[ing a theory to what we know...

It is hard to imagine today why there would have been an evolutionary advantage, but you have to imagine way back into the evolutionary chain when reproduction of new generations took less than a year and mass reproduction meant starvation (and high stress). Under conditions of high stress, such as not enough food to go around mew generations would have higher amounts of homosexuals so the entire species wouldn't stave to death.

Homosexuality is normal, is found in thousand so species and developed as an evolutionary strategy for species survival way back in the evolutionary chain. To this day oler parents have a larger percentage of homosexual kids than younger parents. Why? Having kids later in life is more stressful.

There is still ongoing research, and it has been found that there is more htan one combination to meta-genetic switches that causes homosexuality. We dotn 'know everything, but we do know tha tsexual orientation is set before birth.

If environment caused homosexuality, then the so called "reparative therapy" would work, but it doesn't not at all. In fact in ten year follow up studies the suicide rate is higher than the so called long term successes.

@Bobby9

I get that.

Thanks.

Sexuality is not linear in a way that anatomical predisposition removes choice or learned behavior.

Just some of the gay guys I know.
Tom was always different. I went to the same schools as him from 5-16 years of age. He was the clumsy kid that got kicked out of gardening class at 8 when he put a fork through his foot. He was always picked on and bullied. You have to remember this was the 60s-70s and although being gay was legal, it was only just. Any gays in the media were camp caricatures, Bowie only hit the scene in 70-71 and we didn`t even know he was bi. It was much later when I Tom briefly. His voice had changed and it was obvious he was gay. He did not learn that, where was the role-models? This was a working-class white suburb, you could get the shit kicked out of you for supporting the wrong football team.
Brian was half Somali, half white protestant He grew up in Belfast at the height of the troubles. You could get knee-capped if you spoke out of turn. Can you imagine how much stick a camp guy would receive on an orange lodge estate? Again where were his role models?
Adian is a nice kid from a good Jewish family. From what I know everyone around him is straight. His bar-mitzvah party theme was "My favourite musicals". You tell me how a 13-year-old boy has made some kind of learnt behaviour choice at that age?
I could go on but I think you might need to meet some gay people yourself. (Don't worry it's not contagious)

@Bobby9 @273kelvin

"When I was in college and at all times thereafter homosexuality was never learned."

"Just some of the gay guys I know.
Tom was always different. I went to the same schools as him from 5- years of age."

Non sequitur reaponses. It's also important for seemingly most people here to learn that personal experience and interpretation are not the science. Hell, they aren't even scientific. Variables have to be controlled in order to remove opinion and bias.

We just can't take much from you replies.

@Bobby9

"When you get a fact let me know"

You and others are making the claim that homosexuality is innate at birth.

This claim requires proof. All responses have supplied only anecdotal evidence. That won't fly. I cannot prove a negative. This is basic stuff.

@snytiger6
I don't think that that can be the mechanism is action here. There is no intention in evolution, thus genes can't change in response to maternal stress as a means of planning for the future. (This is similar to the incorrect brief that birds grew longer breaks to reach seeds instead of the birds that happened to have longer beaks having an easier time getting food resulting in a greater probability of passing on the long beak genes.)

@JeffMurray

This reinforces my point that humans/babies suckle with their mouth because they have a mouth.

There is no evidence for an intelligent designer of the mouth, eyebrow, arm, thumb, etc. You have these things, and use them to interact with the environment around you. There is no innate or instinctual knowledge of anything. This thought process is hooey, magical thinking, nonsense. If god gave us mouths to suckle, why not just give us all the ability to create our own milk that automatically fills our stomachs?

All behavior is learned from the environment around us.

@SCal I was taught how to speak, walk, read and write. Nobody taught me how to masturbate and certainly not what to masturbate about. Yet you say its all learned behaviour.
Who showed you how to wank? Did you think about the girl next door or your friend's mom? Where did you "learn" those preferences?
Sexuality is so varied and often perverse. I have come across so many different kinks that I cannot see any learnt patterns. Eg. One lady was into wristwatches. I mean around the man's member. How and where could one "learn" that?

@SCal

@SCal
Well, two points.

1. You can't produce milk for yourself, obviously. It takes X calories to produce X-Y calories of milk. If you produced your own food, you would die super quick.
2. It is instinctual for infants to hold their breath if you throw them into the water. Not sure how that's a learned behavior.