Wrong. "...maybe we could get actual change." ?!?!?
Sitting out democratic participation is a surefire path to losing your democracy entirely.

@MikeInBatonRouge yes. I said it. I don't see another way. Just one round. The egg on their faces might actually yield positive change. I'm aware of what that implies of the democracy but it just might work.

@KevinMR no. You allow fascists to take over and block future democracy. Read up on early and mid-20th century European history. Fascism did not take over by random bad luck.

@MikeInBatonRouge hell no I don't. I understand how that comment would trigger that response but that's not at all what I would condone.

@KevinMR not intentionally, no, but in effect, that is what not voting allows, if enough people take that approach.

The SC nominee argument doesn't hold any water with me about voting for Dem prez candidates because when it comes to the issues that matter the most to me, there isn't even any diff there between the parties. Both parties always nominate SC justices that are pro-corporate, anti-civil liberties, and against campaign finance reform. So what if they differ on abortion? Big fucking deal, it's a phony issue that both parties use to con their respective bases. If the Repubs actually wanted to overturn Roe, they could have done it a long time ago as they've had the votes on the SC for decades. But they won't do it because it would kill the Repubs in fed elections and they know it.

I completely agree ma'am. Again.... I will vote.

He's voting for Trump.

@JeffMurray Oops!

I have to disagree with you Mike. I'm not convinced Biden is a better choice than Trump. Which is very depressing.

@bigpawbullets that is just stunning to me. You clearly are absorbing a different set of "facts" than I am.

@bigpawbullets I agree with @MikeInBatonRouge on this. If Trump wins again, say goodbye to basic rights, much less important ones.

@Beowulfsfriend
And Beowulf, that's a huge problem for everyone.
I've turned off the news feeds from what are listed as extreme right and left sources. And it's still a HUGE task to get to the simple facts without the editorializations.

@bigpawbullets all news reports editorialize to a greater or lesser extent. It is hard to get to simple facts, because politicians intentionally obfuscate and sometimes falsify. Reporters have to investigate to try to uncover facts, and that is impossible without choosing some target, some angle. Even a choice to seek out an equal portion of information favorable to both/all sides is a biased choice. Assuming all sides are equally valid is itself biased.

DAMN STRAIGHT!! KUDOS TO YOU!!

@bigpawbullets And a headache?

Interesting.
I consider him to be a much better choice than Hillary and marginally better than Biden.

Next election.... I'll vote Trump. Once I've committed I'm good with "Riding it into the dirt".....
I'll give him 4 more years and see what exciting things happen! Party on!!!!

Trump riles up his base by warning them of the erosion of their 2nd Amendment right. With Trump, I frankly am more concerned about our 1st Amendment rights as well as the other 8.

yes sir bob.... I'll be voting. As usual. Just a "down" evening for me....

@bigpawbullets Understand

@VeronikaAnnJ Thanks but message still stands vote

while I respect your opinion, we differ on this. But the process in place to elect our leaders is sound.

I don't consider religious belief or non-belief to be an important variable in, well, anything. I'll be the first to admit that there are many smarter than I here in this community. However, I don't consider my post disingenuous. Simply a wish for more cooperation among our political groups.

@bigpawbullets It would be wonderful if we didn't have to consider religious belief in our politics--hell, it's what our founders wanted. But, the religious Right has been working for decades to use the government to push their beliefs onto the rest of us and tRump is catering to them.

I am surrounded by Evangelicals and I constantly hear that the US needs Jesus. We need to get back to Jesus. We need our nation to be under God (their version of God). tRump doesn't give a shit about God or Jesus, he just knows how to play the Evangelicals who, if given the chance/power, will be every bit as bad as the Taliban.

Our founders knew the evils of the marriage of Church and State and it's why they wanted them completely separated. tRump and the Republicans are doing all they can to tear down what is left of that wall.

This election is about preserving our Democracy and rebuilding that wall between Church and State. Biden may be a Catholic, but he absolutely believes in maintaining that separation.

I can understand how an atheist can be politically conservative. I cannot, for the life of me, understand how an atheist, or any reasonable person, can be pro tRump. He is not conservative--he is a dictator wannabe who is catering to reactionary extremists who want our nation to be under THEIR god.

And, a withheld vote, or a 3rd Party vote is simply a vote , or non vote, that helps tRump and tRumpism.

the point of the post is that does not matter who is right or wrong, both sides elite just want power, and voting for polarization is always bad even if one side is right.
Depolarization and union is the best option, because if not, there is no dialogue and you end up in 2 possible situations.
The executive chief has majority on the parliament and then can push his(and not his supporters) agenda even if is against his platform.
The executive does not have majority in the parliament... The countrie drags itself in endless discussions and futile power displays and maneuvers for years.

@Pedrohbds if your criteria is someone must agree with you 100% to "earn" your vote, you better run for office yourself. It is Always the "lesser 9f 2 evils" in any election!

@AnneWimsey
That is not remotely what I said or meant, there is not even how to answer it without starting a whole new issue.
Read again my comment against polarization and not against compromising...

@bigpawbullets agreed definitely would like cooperation, and its a thing both parties seem actively against. Have to disagree with the importance of role of religious belief: we have god printed on our money, there are indoctrinated zombies who would kill you as soon as look at you, there are entire buildings, cities that exist and operate under religious belief. We have holidays based on religious belief. A large part of our economy is decided by religious belief alone. It's an important variable in a lot of things.

@MakeItGood
Thanks for the thoughtful and polite post.

agree. Thanks for being a responsible citizen.

Ok brother.
I'm voting for him anyways..

@bigpawbullets WHY?!?

@Nunya
Lesser of two evils.

@bigpawbullets what does this fascist pig have to offer that makes him a desirable candidate for the office of president?....

@Redneckliberal
Are you speaking of President Trump or Biden?

@bigpawbullets Ok, HOW?!? Like, I need specifics here to even begin to grasp how people believe this. PLEASE!

@Nunya
I'm unclear as to what you're asking.
"How" what?

@bigpawbullets it should be crystal clear to anyone that has been paying the least bit of attention and has a minimal grasp of recent world history that a vote for trump is a vote for fascism and a vote for Biden is a return to basic democratic principles........

@Redneckliberal
I respect your opinion. I don't agree.

@bigpawbullets not an opinion...a fact based on obvious evidence

@Redneckliberal
I see you're a "True Believer".
Party on!

@bigpawbullets ....one thing I defiantly not is a trump cult member.....again, wake the fuck up

@bigpawbullets How, specifically, Trump is the lesser of two evils?

and yet.... in my view, President Obama did not serve the country well.

@bigpawbullets But he genuinely tried - he gave his best. He inherited an extremely broken system.

@Nunya
Not an option for POTUS.

@bigpawbullets Who is your pick for most effective, positive president in the modern (post-wwii) era?

@MikeInBatonRouge
I'm not sure what you're asking but Mike.
Historically?

@bigpawbullets yes. I am wondering about your standards, about what type of president you could actually support. Candidates are one thing; they can say all kinds of things that may sound good. But only ones who have actually held high elective office have any track record we can assess them by. Andrew Yang is a wild card. No elective track record. BTE, so was Trump, ugh.

I know of no historical presidents who have even come close to doing a perfect job. But that perfection I suspect is impossible. They have to balance all kinds of complicated factors once in office, and they have to work with a frustrating Congress. I can respect the efforts of a number of presidents, even though I wish certain policy decisions were more to my liking. I am wondering if your standards are so idealistic that no one in reality can live up to them, that only untested speakers can appear for the moment to be worthy of your vote.

Walt! Thanks for your input. I'll be voting as the good wife won't allow it otherwise. I'm confident our country will prevail. I just fervently hope without major bloodshed.

I applaud your enthusiasm and efforts.

@bigpawbullets I don't know if I can stand another term of Trumpism. I've ACTUALLY made plans to move to Europe if he gets elected.

Yes! "Compromise" is a tough thing for idealists to swallow, but it is so necessary. We have to pick our battles in life. Cutting down everyone who is mostly on our side but not perfectly so is a disastrous mistake. Cancel culture is deeply frustrating for that reason.
(I am not so sure where bigpawbullets' political leanings even are. I am not convinced they are even left of center)

Astute. But I see the current Democratic ticket and platform as far more radical and destructive to our country than the Rupublicans.

@bigpawbullets You may be conflating Biden’s platform with other progressive and leftist platforms. Biden is a a centrist IMO

@UUNJ
It may become clearer during the presidential debates.

@bigpawbullets Destroying what?

@Mcflewster
Portland, California, Seattle, Chicago......
Just a few examples.

@bigpawbullets so you are far right?

Note: America IS very much Right of center by every political metric I know. If you are advocating falling to the right of Biden, you are advocating far right, hard right, measures.

@Gnarloc
Labeling anyone is counterproductive.

@bigpawbullets Did you notice the question mark? I was asking if you tended to identify as to the right. Your initial post, and I'll admit that it caused me to make some assumptions, led me to believe you were on the left of center.

If you are on the right... why do you feel we need to go farther to the right? What is missing such that you think we need to add it to our nation, it's culture or... well, whatever.

What kind of candidate would fit your bill of 'perfect' (the proverbial unicorn)?

If you are on the left, my other statements stand. I do think that we need to move more towards the center, if not the left. It's obvious that we are failing ourselves and I think we need to repair that through various programs to support the middle class.

Note: i am a recovering Republican. I voted for Reaganx2, and Bush Sr, and started to notice (not at a conscious level) the direction our nation was going and... it just seemed like things were NOT going the right way, not for our average citizen and... well, we have been getting steadily angry at ourselves for quite some time, starting in that time frame.

I have made something of an amateur study of the changes, mostly focused on the Republican side, since before LBJ but there is a galvanic shift with LBJ and the signing of the Civil Rights Act... and it ain't pretty.

I don't ask to label. I am with you they are of limited value, but it is good to know who you are talking to, where they are coming from, in hopes of aiding your ability to talk with them about issues.

@Gnarloc
Don't know about right or left.... again, confusing labels. I'm for Constitutional Law. I've been "labeled" as a Libertarian.
Candidates? Maybe General (ret) Mattis for President with Connie Rice for VP.

@bigpawbullets Re. "Labeling anyone is counterproductive."
It's called language. We cannot have any sort of meaningful discussion without labels, though they ARE imperfect. We have to use them, then clarify our meaning/definition. Your post started out critical of Left and Right and embracing "Forward," but without clarifying your concept of Forward. The fact you referenced Yang suggested you were leaning to some version of progressive politics. But apparently not.

I still haven't heard if ANY of our historical post-WWII presidents match your idea of good for the country or not. But your mention of Mattis and Condi. Rice are helpful. So you'd like someone who actually HAS a governing philosophy, is competent, and is for law and accountability. The orange one is lawless, self-serving in the extreme, and a very dangerous autocrat-wannabe who whips up racial and other forms of hate, apparently to justify his claims that he needs more executive power to "restore order." That tactic is straight out of the Fascists' playbook.

Joe, btw, is a moderate Dem who is trying to work with the Left flank of his party to seek the "way forward." He is not Leftist. That claim is Republican bogeyman tactics and not reality-based. You may not consciously recall, but NONE of the centrist Dems even proposes any tax structure as Left-leaning as what we had under Eisenhower and even Nixon. The radical Right-wing robber Barron-favored current tax structure that was quietly laid out starting in the 70's and then found its cheerleader in Chief in Reagan is responsible for the most massive wealth disparity in favor of the rich that this nation has ever seen. Democracy cannot last indefinitely while such outrageous disparities persist. That may be largely why Republicans are seeing the electoral writing on the wall and have responded by attacking democracy itself. Their only way to win is through lying, coupled with disenfranchising masses of voters.

The other major importantant factor with the modern GOP, besides their disdain for actual democracy, is their doubling down on appealing to racists(and the most racist and otherwise bigoted factions of Christianity). Nixon's "Southern Strategy" to capitalize on Dixicrats disgrunted over the civil rights movement has only intensified with time. That is a large reason I cannot support any presidential candidate backed by the GOP.. Even someone with general integrity, like McCain or Romney, in running for president, becomes beholden to a truly Machiavelian cynical Republican machine.

People are, of course, free to differ on that, but I AM right.

@bigpawbullets Sad . Thanks

@bigpawbullets, @MikeInBatonRouge Sticky, inprinted or engraved labels BAD ; Tie on labels GOOD they are meant to be temporary.

@bigpawbullets so you want to see our Supreme Court full of drump picks?

@AnneWimsey
Good morning Anne!
Sure. The Supreme Court rulings don't affect me.
Great Kabuki theater!!!

@bigpawbullets you must be male, deaf, and blind, or you would know exactly how the Supreme Court truly does impinge on your life.

@Gnarloc
Well, I'm a guy with hearing aids. 20/20 vision though thanks to Lasik surgery two decades ago.
Party on!!!!

I respect your opinion ma'am.
I'll be voting a Republican ticket.

@bigpawbullets What IS the ticket? What is it about Trump’s administration that makes any sense at all?

@bigpawbullets Could I ask why, please? I don't understand your reasoning.

@bigpawbullets may I ask why

@UUNJ
The incumbents.

@bigpawbullets But what’s their platform? Everything Trump says is wrong and that he’ll fix, is crap that happened on his watch.

@UUNJ
I believe the 2016 platform is still valid.
You can Google it in it's entirety.

@bigpawbullets in case you might have missed it the draft dodging piece of shit doesn't have a platform....like everything else he does he's winging it.....throw shit against the wall and see what sticks.........thats his platform and that's how he operates and that's why he is a profound failure at this job...wake the fuck up

@bigpawbullets because you want the Supreme Court, and myriads of lower courts, packed full of right-wiing religious believers....?

@AnneWimsey
Balanced.... not packed. I'm not against other's religious beliefs. And all citizens should be represented.

@bigpawbullets same question: you think drump cares about "balanced"? And you are okay with him being the appointer?

@AnneWimsey
Yes to both.

I agree. Don't feed a troll. But for the rest of you, I'll leave you with this meme ...

@nicestuff Maybe some of us are not interested in public transport the rest of our lives. We would rather eventually buy a car, as in vote for a third party if a viable one comes along.

@nicestuff that is an excellent meme!

Totally agree. I'll be voting as usual. Thanks for the kick in the ass.

I prefer cremation.

@bigpawbullets I will gladly supply the gasoline and matches.

@VeronikaAnnJ I had BPB blocked for a long time. For some reason I unblocked him. It appears I will have to again. I know a couple of conservatives that are voting for Biden. I find it hard to believe anyone even with a high double digit IQ can't see what he is doing to this country. Trump is simply evil. He doesn't even hide it.

@Sticks48
You're tooooooo eager Sticks!

@bigpawbullets Not really. It is too hot to be starting a fire. Lets wait until November or December.

I agree our democracy is in big trouble and if trump wins we are all doomed and what happens here will affect negatively the rest of the world it already has

"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit:

There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."

~ Frank Wilhoit

I would argue that the corporatism involved is bipartisan.