What determines whether a person is a Christian or not? To what authority can anyone turn to verify a person’s or their own Christian authenticity?
Is every person who claims to be a Christian necessarily a Christian, even if they make no effort to follow Christ’s teaching? Does joining a Christian church make a person a Christian? Getting baptized? How about just attending, without joining?
Could a person who, through their own personal value system, happens to live very nearly the life Jesus recommended, be called a Christian even
if they don’t call themselves one?
Who gets to decide? The person, themselves? The church they attend? The church they don’t attend? Their neighbor? Some opinionated FB rando?
What makes a Christian a Christian?
Why do you worry about it? What difference does it make to your life? I think you could be a lot happier if you just minded your own business.......
@TheMiddleWay pooh, do you Ever listen to yourself? I have Never claimed to be as wonderful as you think you are......
Ya gotta be gullible, arrogant, easily manipulated, and deny science and facts.
Then they give you a t-shirt at level eight.
Well said.
I'm of two minds on this.
On the one hand, I think that someone is a Christian if they believe that Christ is - at least potentially - their savior. Behavior is irrelevant to the question - we have good Christians and bad Christians, and the good may wish to disown the bad, but I call bullshit on that.
On the other hand, I am very skeptical that any of them actually, truly believe that Christ will - or even can - save them. At least not with the eternal life part.
Best spoken with Midlothian accent: "The No True Scotsman fallacy!"
This is a very good question because Jesus was also not a Christian. Let's also look at churches and the alter scene with prayers and wailing and Jesus ending up inside you. OMG you are saved ! The problem is that there are no scenes like this in the bible.
There isn't any such thing as an official, objective definition of what makes a person ANY religion. Subjective definitions abound, all claiming to be the correct one. Good luck!
Unfortunately,Christians self identify. That means they don't have to follow any of the teachings, but just identify as "Christians". Because there are so many various sects, there is no set of qualities one can use to measure to determine Christianity.
Some think all you hav eot do is simply believe in Jesus and you are saved, and it doesnt' matter what you actually do or say in your life.
First thought was who cares but then I had a mind shift thing happen as I explain:
I tend to just accept people for who they claim they are - it's when actions do not align with their words I take a closer look. Example
There is a person I know, female, very religious, reads the bible daily. Pre COVID she hosted a bible study group and when trump was placed in the WH tried to get the members of the group to sign some petition. It caused the group to fall apart as many felt it crossed the line of separation of church and state.
She and her husband believe a pretty rigid idea of Christianity PLUS everything said on fox TV is the God's honest truth and fact. Outside of that she is a nice person, tends to seek out and help some of the more disabled or less mobile residents in the complex and makes a GREAT Caesar Salad for potlucks.
It was pointed out to me one day that there is a method to her help - it's more about gaining brownie points to get into heaven than from a real altruistic stance.
I changed my view to EXcellent question/thought. I never gave that view much thought, though recognizing the hypocrisy was almost always easy, their true motive may be harder to discern. Ultimately each person seems to decide what it means to be christian - so which came first the religion or the being christian?
One of the letter-writers(James?) of the New Testament scolded the "believers" of a town, saying their behavior was deplorable and that their pagan neighbor's "christian" actions were such that they would be in heaven before the Christians would.
Seems that James thought is that you don't have to believe, but you must act like you believe.
In my mind a person decides whether or not they will believe in and follow the tenets and practices of whatever religion they decide they wish to belong to. So generally speaking I'd assume a person that follows the teachings of Christ would be one. Sadly that would rule out a number of those who claim it but don't actually practice it.
To be honest, I don't really care.
The way people treat others is much more important to me than some label.
I know both some great, and shit people that will call themselves 'Christian', and the same goes for non-believers I know.
I've been called Christian because my actions caused someone to make that assumption. When I replied that I'm not Christian, I was informed that yes I am, whether I believe it or not, because I do good things, and being Christian just means being a good person. Huh!
Another friend went crying to her pastor regarding me. I had told her I was agnostic, and that really bothered her. Before and also after that chat, I would do nice things for her and her family, just being neighborly, because I'm human and that's what humans do. She couldn't understand how I could be a nice person, yet not believe in God. What bothered her most is that according to what her pastor said, I would not go to heaven, but to hell, and she couldn't bear that. I told her I didn't believe in either of those either, so don't worry about me. Just enjoy life.
Then there are people who call themselves Christian, but behave abominably, yet we are asked to take them at their word. Those would be fake Christians, I guess.
So gauging from my experiences, I would say that a person isn't Christian, unless they try to be a good person, but a good person isn't necessarily Christian. Calling oneself Christian, doesn't make it so.
Next, tell her you don't believe in pastors.
Let me beg to disagree . . . . well, not beg, ha ha. [merriam-webster.com]
"1a: one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ"
Note that this says nothing about whether someone is good or not, only that they claim to be a follower of Geeeeeezzzzuuuuuussssss. That means you can be Adolf Hitler, (who did profess to be christian),
Adolf Trump, or who ever, all you have to do is CLAIM you follow him. Implied "goodness" is a christian invention, and often the people I come across who cling to this "goodness" image have skeletons in their closet. It is like the guys who run around acting macho all the time, then when they end up in a fight, they get their asses whipped. The bigger the mouth, the smaller the . . . well you know about that.
BTW WTF is "woo", it is in the Urban Dictionary, but that can't be the meaning as you use it in your profile . . . ha ha ha
Urban dictionary:
"Woo is a gang originally created in Brooklyn. Their long time enemies are choo's. Famous rappers like Pop smoke, Fivio foreign etc are woo."
@Archeus_Lore I'm pretty sure the OP has access to a dictionary, and so was just asking other's feelings or experiences of what our perception of the term Christian to be . I was just sharing my experiences and thoughts on the term.
I think the terms "professed Christian" can be different than "true Christian" or also "Christian-like" and it's the latter I guess that I would say means just being a good person, in many people's minds.
I'm glad you don't have the experience I've had with people involved in woo-woo spirituality. It also may not have a true dictionary definition for the way I use it, but here is the skeptics dictionary definition of it.
Cool. The Skeptics Dictionary . . . first I have heard about it. They forgot to put in the word GGEEZZZUUUSSS, as a derogatory term for the imaginary great dictator in the sky!
@Archeus_Lore I guess you can write your own dictionary to include that spelling!
If I had the time I would, although I do have a pretty good collection of Flying Spaghetti Monster quotes I put together. And who knows WHAT I would come up with if I created a dictionary.
Some of them are kind of entertaining.
Flying Spaghetti Monster 1:02
The Flying Spaghetti Monster is my god. He's the wisest of all gods, has a wonderful sense of humor, knows how to laugh, does not act with vengeance, never threatens you with damnation, and he does not care whether you believe in Him or not! And, of course, he even admits to being imaginary!
Flying Spaghetti Monster 1:12
The Flying Spaghetti Monster says that aliens will come to the earth and turn the sea into solid rock, connect the earth and moon with lego toys, and smoke corn tassels with us as a symbol of universal remembrance of all of the ants that died in battle from the beginning of time. He then states that what he just said makes just as much sense and holds just as much water . . . as Revelations.
Flying Spaghetti Monster 1:07:
I prayed to the flying spaghetti monster today, but he told me he was to lazy to do anything for me, and said "Fuck off and go bother some other imaginary being." I kind of like his truthfulness and candor, and what other god could make someone laugh so much?"
Then something I stole for him was:
Flying Spaghetti Monster 2:22:
You must always remember Zarasthustra -
.
"You should first of all learn the art of earthly comfort,
you should learn to laugh, my young friends, if you are at
all determined to remain pessimists: if so, you perhaps,
as laughing ones, eventually send all metaphysical
comfortism to the devil and metaphysics first of all!
Or, to say it in the language of that Dionysian ogre,
called Zarathustra :
"Lift up your hearts, my brethren, high, higher!
And do not forget your legs! Lift up also your legs, you
good dancers and better so if you stand on your
heads!
"This crown of the laughter, this rose-wreath crown
I myself have put on this crown; I myself have
pronounced holy my laughter. No one else have I found
today strong enough for this.
"Zarathustra the dancer, Zarathustra the light one,
who beckons with his wings, one ready for flight,
beckoning unto all birds, ready and heady, a bliss
fully light-spirited one:
"Zarathustra the soothsayer, Zarathustra the sooth-
laughter, not impatient, not absolute, one who
loves leaps and side-leaps : I myself have put on this
crown!
"This crown of the laughter, this rose-wreath crown
to you my brethren do I cast this crown! Laughter
have I pronounced holy: you higher men, learn,
to laugh!"
From Friedrich Nietzsche's book, Thus Spoke Zarathustra
I have never had to work hard to get my imagination rolling, ha ha ha
Who the fuck cares?!
My first reaction also.
The person who asked, starting this thread cared to ask. Why did you respond at all if you didn't want to, what are you a christain (hypocrite)?
The ones who loose their livelihood by losing their faith.
@IceManBNice420 oh I wanted to, exactly as I did!
@Mofo1953 Your choice. Assisting clergy to find more satisfying non religious jobs is actually helping to get rid of religion.
As with many things, people are left to identify themselves as being a member of a group or having a particular characteristic.
Sadly, any person can identify himself as Christian and thus collect all the social benefits that go with it. There isn't any requirement for them to do any particular thing, except convince the other suckers.
Well, it depends on one’s definition and there is no perfect dictionary. I used to think “Christian” = (a)“Anyone going to heaven” or, I thought equivalently, “Anyone not going to hell.” But now, according to (a) I suspect no one is a Christian and no one has ever been, while according to I propose everyone is a Christian and everyone has always been!
There is a whole bunch of vicars/priests in the UK who have got themselves together under the Title ' Sea of faith '( research Don Cupit) I am not sure how far it reaches in America and beyond but there may be an organization with a separate name. The reason for their formation is that they have all lost their faith -particularly accepting Jesus as LORD . Many of them retain their employment of spreading Christianity OR have help from the organization to find alternative employment. Ask them for their reasons for joining SOF and what is the tipping point for being dismissed from the church.
I think a true Christian is someonewho doesn't cherry pick the bible. They are proper fundamentalists because of that. They don't trust science, believe the end is near, women should obey men, etc..
The only "true xtians" I have ever met were Friends from Friends' General Conference (Quakers). They believe in the sermon on the mount above all. Tend to put too much emphasis on jesus for me as an atheist but they are non-violent, kind, gentle, don't preach damnation and hell fire. In fact they hardly preach at all, believing in silent worship. I'd still consider myself one except that I stopped believing in god and heaven.
Are you trying to get a precise definition so you can counter the fallacy of the "true Scotsman"?
If it is the case, it is impossible, because the "true Christian" is vague enough to be able to support the people in power.
A sinful person can only be judged by god if it is in power, but a much less sinful person can be ostracized if it is against the established power.
If you want to be strictly legalist, any person who is baptized in a self-defined Christian organization is Christian, and will only not be christian anymore if excommunicated or if it declares apostasy formally, and by formally i mean a formal letter to the church in which you are baptized, what will lead to excommunication in most of the churches.
The quality of this faith is not taken into account on this, a bad christian is still a christian.
Any non excommunicated or non apostate is still a christian that is deviating from the path (surprise fake atheists, you are still counted as members of the bronze age, goat fuckers club).
You get to be who you want to be when it comes to philosophical stuff. All kinds of self proclaimed christians don't follow any christian teachings. You might not be a good christian but you can be one if you want. There are so many sects of christianity that no one knows the difference. I can say I'm a donor even if I've never donated anything. Someone with a different definition of christianity might differ with how you live your life or your beliefs and they may say you're not a christian but they aren't the arbiters of who you are. You can say you're superman if you want and jump off tall buildings--it may get you hospitalized both medically and psychologically but that's the price you pay.
What do you think?
Personally I’d say they’d need to know the teachings of Christ, have faith that he existed and was God’s son and be making a real commitment to follow his teachings and be loving and caring to people.
To be Christian they would also have to discard large portions, if not all, of the Old Testament.
I really don't know. That's why I'm asking. I see people blaming "Christians" for this or that, and I wonder how we know they are Christians.
@skado most of them aren’t, from my Sunday school teachings, it’s a very misused term. For example Christ taught not to judge, which would circumnavigate a lot of hate crimes. Also to be accepting and appreciative of people’s that are different, the story of the Good Samaritan.
There are also many different sects within Christianity, many of which claim that they are the only true Christians. And you have also to remember that the religion has changed vastly over time. A Nazarean, would not recognize the followers of Paul as Christian, who in turn would not understand the views of post Constantine Christians, while a couple of hundred years later the split between Rome and Greece made it into different churches, the Reformation and post Reformation non conformism, all change it again. And who knows what happened in the muddles of the first two centuries before any original written records.
That fact is that you just have to accept that a Christian is anyone who self identifies, with what is basically an almost meaningless term, some don't even believe in a physical Jesus. The only common thread is that each are trying to give their quite different views a little extra (fake) authority, by linking them in name with a tradition.
My guess is that the next incarnation of the name, will be as a rebranding of fascism. That is what you get when you set up the god fallacy, and/or, give god like authority to tradition. Anyone can manipulate god and tradition, (who have no voice or opinion of their own), to support whatever views they like, they are therefore, 'gods gift' (sic) to the criminal exploiter, and always fall into the criminals hands in the end.
" Anyone can manipulate god and tradition, (who have no voice or opinion of their own), to support whatever views they like,"
Very Good
I reserve the right to define myself.
Honestly I’m profoundly boring anyway.
I must be into monogamy because I’ve only been with one partner since 1993, and we divorced in 2007.
I’ve known holy rollers that cheated while on their honeymoon.
"Holy Rolling is sometimes used derisively by those outside these denominations, as if to describe people literally rolling on the floor in an uncontrolled manner.".
Hahaha......haven't heard that in years. And I had to goggle it.