That's the position of fundamentalists. But most xians don't even think about such topics; they're too busy with their smiley-face god.

But I'd like to ask a fundamentalist just how the 'fall' changed behavior and even stomach chemistry, the shape of teeth, patterns in the brain, and so on. Either god or the devil did it. Both positions lead to theological problems.

@HumanistJohn the problem is that nothing in creation is independent from YHWH, he knows past and future and so if something happened is because he allowed, thus he wanted it to happen as he writes the source code and can see the results in "real time".
Thus is irrelevant if god did it by itself or allowed/programmed the devil or any other part of the creation to do something.
Plus wen talking about eden, the tree of life and so on we are on a mystic era where physical laws are not well defined yet. It was a perfect world, so it was not real.

Of course this is what is written, I am discussing the text, not saying that I believe in it.

Totally ignoring that this all-powerful god could have created a humane circle of life. Of course, they want to blame humans and sin, ignoring the fact that this god created humans to be "sinful" in the first place.

@Joanne They also ignore the fact that lions have a hard time eating straw with sharp pointed teeth. lol

I completely agree. I have always loved animals, especially mammals, and idealized nature as a young person. It was very eye opening to realize at some time just how violent and unforgiving nature can be. It can be downright revolting and dusgusting unless we are willing to accept that even in the process of death and decay exists a kind of wonder at how it all works together.

@RussRAB haha yeah. We anthropomorphize the nature and find good and evil. If we apply human values, nature is terrifyingly cruel. Deception and cruelty are the features not the exception.

I thought it it was the chimps ripping an arm off another chimp that opened his eyes, but yes, he realised.

I wonder why those who believe in heaven are not making all haste to get there or maybe they prefer to make life a hell here for all those around them. Still, I do not see them jumping off cliffs or committing mass suicide. Silly me, heaven is always in some future that never arrives. The proverbial donkey chassing a carrot tied to a stick that is fixed to it's halter springs to mind.

@ASTRALMAX some believe that suicide stops you getting in don’t they? But yes; not all

@girlwithsmiles I ve been to two suicide-related funerals in my life. I heard one of the attendees saying, "we got to pray really hard for his soul because he wasn't god-ready yet".

@TimeOutForMe mmm that’s a difficult thing to overhear. Sorry you lost them.

@ASTRALMAX I also can't see how Rightwingers will want to go to heaven anytime soon. Their "holy book" says "it's a place where ALL god's people live in harmony". That means heaven will be "a grey area" with no Separate Development Act. I was around 15 years old when I asked a white Afrikaans-speaking NGK church minister this question in South Africa? That same minister gave his all-white congregation "food for thought" ie "you cannot mix with blacks", "they're non-believers," "they're the son's of Isaac" , "they have no crown on their head" and therefore "kaffirs". Those churches were instrumental in the segregation of people. They have hatred for fellow mankind. ...and yet today, eg look at USA (and South Africa too), African American xtian congregations are huge in fellowship, audiences and quoirs. ...those huge gospel groups!!! They need to collect their thoughts about this craziness. It was a religion forced on them by their cruel slave owners, so they can love their cruel brother, overlook the flogging! and be damned to a continued life of brutal slavery with no heaven in sight!

@TimeOutForMe yes, there seems to be a Christian strong hold in the African American population here too (UK).
But I don’t believe in God and think there of people in all walks if life that do great things regardless of politics, religion or class

@girlwithsmiles I too don't believe in any god. You don't need a dependency on make-belief gods to show your kindness and your humanity to fellow humans.

I agree. The argument of evil does not prove that no gods exist. It can only be an argument against the god of the bible being an all loving god. And the fact that it is so contradictory, and has such human attributes, one can reasonably argue that it cannot exist.

I cannot know whether a deistic god exists. It simply cannot be known. But, we can say that there is no reason to insert a god, of any kind, in order to explain the workings of the universe. So, why insert one? I refer to Occam's Razor. And, the simplest explanation is that mindless energy has always existed. Once we add a consciousness, will/volition, human attributes, it adds unnecessary complexity.

@Joanne My view exactly. I think little of the view that the universe, needs or is in any way intelligent. But at the same time I am tolerant of a wide range of opinion even deism, because I have no time for dogma.

@Fernapple Yes! If someone must believe in a god, I certainly prefer the god of deism.

The animals themselves are not "evil." They are simply doing what they must to survive--according to evolution. But a god that would create such a system, with so much pain and suffering, would, in my opinion, be evil.

@Joanne
Is the world itself then evil?

...and it is what it is. At least the big cat family will make sure you're dead before feasting. ...not like the hyenas and wild dogs, they're eat you while you're alive.

@skado The only thing evil is humans.

There is good and there is evil.

@Word And the heads and hearts of mankind contain all of both