@Shelton I wasn't talking about a field, but just single wind mills on properties, I coudl see drivign from Portland OR to the Oregon Coast.

I have seen wind farms all around Palm Springs CA though.

You mean eggs for chickens, don't you ?

@Shelton Very! I take it to the beach all the time!

@cvccosplay What is the life expectancy of an average solar panel for home use, in your opinion?

@MacTavish having never experienced degradation of electrical production from mine, I had to turn to google for factual info. Degradation is about .5-1% per year, manufacturer guaranteed for at least 20 years. Considering open circuit voltage is typically rated at 25VDC (and typically regulated to 12-13VDC), 40-50 years for standard 100W panels I suppose to be safe.

@cvccosplay
Wow, that's a lot longer than I expected. Thanks for the reply!

@Shelton yes. It is not completely done. I still have about an inch of earth to put down. I think I am going to mix mica in that last layer to slow the release of heat.In Midwinter when I am getting the greatest passive solar gain if I keep all the windows shut it can get to 100 degrees.If I don't make a fire it might be chilly in the morning

Everyone who has installed panels (including myself) has been pleasantly surprised by their high power production. For a free energy source, there are no downsides.

Its not free, @cvccosplay . Fundamental law of physics: TANSTAAFL. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. There's always some cost.

This is why I suggested looking into means of production and eventual waste. PV cells degrade and lose efficiency over time. Eventually they become too inefficient to be useful, and now you have a non-recyclable chunk of heavy metals and other long term garbage.

PV cells don't just magically appear before being installed on your house. The cost begins BEFORE you get them.

@Torq lol I suppose I should specify for those who aren't electrical engineers: the energy is freely and readily available. Studying engineering was a practical decision for me. The panels aren't really that expensive and I've never experienced degradation of electrical production from panels.

Panels are designed to produce more than theorized so that charge controllers and voltage regulators maintain a reliable stable output. Your theory is a bit inaccurate.

I think maybe you aren't quite getting my point, @cvccosplay . The subject here is the "green-ness" of PV cells. In order to determine that we need to consider the entire "life cycle" of a PV cell.

A life cycle that begins with mining heavy metals and other somewhat rare materials. I say "somewhat" because they aren't as rare as, say, plutonium, but they aren't as common as silicon, for example.

The next stage is the real kicker, though, and it involves large outputs of energy to refine said materials and to bake them at extremely high heat in preparation for becoming PV cells.

These are front loaded environmental costs that PV cell manufacturers don't advertise when selling you their product. Not that they should necessarily be obliged to, mind you. Caveat emptor, as always, still applies. It seems to me, however, that the majority of consumers don't bother to look into that and prefer to think the PV cells just magically appear to provide them with electricity, with no previous cost to the environment.

Degradation is a fact of physics, as well, that PV cell providers and consumers seem to tend to not consider. PV cells have a lifespan. That includes an eventual death. PV cells are doing work. Work means degradation or decay. That leads ultimately to failure of the system. Early PV technology had about a 30 year lifespan. Last I heard, that had been bumped up to 50 (that bump may have come at a greater front end cost in production, but I don't know that for certain). It's been a while since I did hard research on this, so that lifespan may have been extended even further in the interim.

Regardless, though, the fact remains that, just like everything else, PV cells have a finite lifespan and eventually become junk. Junk comprised of toxic metals that we, so far, have no facility for dealing with in an environmentally safe manner.

To be clear here, I'm not saying PV cells are bad, per se. I'm certainly not saying coal and oil are better alternatives. All I AM saying is that everything comes at some cost and that includes PV cell technology. Yes, it's better than many of the means of energy production currently in use, but it is NOT as good as has been made out by those making a buck off them. And also not as good, overall, as some other means.

@Torq no, I got all your points before, just didn't entertain them. I've studied semiconductor construction extensively during my undergraduate experience. It's not nearly as labor intensive as you have stated. Degradation of panels is .5% per year, manufacture guaranteed for 20+ years; The life span of my PV panels will likely exceed my own.

I didn't say it was labour intensive, @cvccosplay. I said it was energy intensive, which it is, as you must likely know given your extensive experience.

So, that last part seems very much like you're saying it's not your problem because you'll be dead long before your PV cell panels are. Screw the next generation, amirite?

Heh. Isn't it that attitude that got us into this mess to begin with?

Grid-tie is a rip off. If the power grid goes down, you're screwed unless you're banking some of it.

@cvccosplay I don't mean that... I mean I cannot use sustainable but there are independent energy suppliers in the UK who run off solar wind and renewable so if you cannot use renewable directly at least you can choose a supplier who is !! I said, "if you can get it up and running for your own use it's cool" as in I can't ... Submarine batteries or water displacement system on archimedes screws is your best option .. but I can't do that.

[3helixpower.com]

Check that out ... energy all day and night and only limited by the amount you can gather .. You run solar which pumps water up to the header area .. That gives you overnight full power or if your header is big enough for days.. If you have a stream that is okay but header don't reduce flow is the idea so consistent and can use pretty much same water over and over if you don't have stream near... really interesting and very efficient .. sadly you can't run that in a tower block lol. You only pump what you need to the header on solar assuming you don't have a dammed stream

I am.

I would be, as well

Grid-tie is not a great way to go.

@cvccosplay Staged install. The bloke who set it up has left provision for batteries as they can be afforded.

Wow, that is a lot of battery power.
I have friends who have power bills over $900 a month, even though they have a small solar setup. I am lucky, I get a month payback of about $120 after all our use and infrastructure charges. I think we must have the highest power costs in the world in Oz.

@Shelton It works fine for most applications but, will not operate a deep well AC pump motor. What most people don't realize is that most motors that require instant full ;oat need to have a starter and these starters require a momentary load of 32 or more amps which exceeds the maxim of most low and medium end inverters. To overcome this I had to switch to a variable speed pump that has a low start up amp requirement, these are about 4 times the price of a regular motor and require a different type of pressure troller. The other option was a DC pump but they are even more costly. The system does operate any electric tool or lights and small appliances, It will operate a 2 hp motor on a table saw, a large microwave, heat gun, stock tough heater or a 2 burner hot plate. In the summer here it average a continuous load of about 300 watts without any interruption but in the winter it does less than 100 continuous which is still enough to supply water to about 100animals.

I'm running my 110vac waterpump on my solar on just a 15 amp breaker and have had no problems. I was worried about the startup amps, but it is working okay so far. The well is about 100 feet deep.

@DaveSchumacher Our wells are 50' to 100' deeper. Do you use a submersible? How big of an inverter do you use?

Yes it is a submersible, the inverter is 48vdc to 110vac 5k pure sine wave.

@DaveSchumacher That is a lot heftier system than my 12 vDC job, no wander it runs it, it would probably run mine at 200 ft. as well.

yes it disgusts me @Shelton it really does