None of that matters. The positive feedback loop on the permafrost has begun and it's releasing like 4x the amount of carbon that humans did. Human involvement can make it worse, but even the entire global population going carbon neutral can't stop it now. We are doomed; that is not up for intelligent debate. Climate scientists warned us for decades and we didn't listen. Now, even though it has happened (the point of no return), most people don't even know it, and a ton of people are actually citing our current position as evidence that the climate scientists were wrong all along. It doesn't get more stupid and arrogant than that.

@ChestRockfield Who is your source saying the Rubicon has been crossed?

@Flyingsaucesir I wish I would have saved them, but they weren't really a resource to prove to people we need to change our ways, they were a statement about the fact that we no longer had the option. There were papers on studies that had been completed that were released the beginning of this year. They concluded that the permafrost was releasing 4x the amount of carbon that humans produced. Some of them were a little scarier than others, but if you read between the lines, they basically said the same thing.

@ChestRockfield For the record, I am not saying that we have not crossed the Rubicon; my sense is that we are close to it and may have crossed already. But I want to hear from the experts (realizing that their opinions vary and may or may not reflect reality.

@Flyingsaucesir Then I'd read what they're saying about the permafrost's contribution to global warming specifically. Maybe you won't find it as ominous as I did??

@ChestRockfield I realize that the permafrost is giving off methane and CO2. But we have technology that can remove CO2 from the atmosphere, and the sun provides about a kilowatt of energy per square meter of Earth surface per day, and we have technologies that can harvest that pretty efficiently. My point is that we have all the tools to combat climate change. It's not a technological hump we have to get over. It's a political one.

@Flyingsaucesir Well, if humans can somehow go massively carbon negative, then I suppose it's not too late, but considering the people that make our laws are so fucking stupid they bring snowballs into congress to "prove" global warming doesn't exist, I'm not going to hold my breath for a political solution to this problem.

@ChestRockfield You refer to the infamous Senator Inhoff...I remember well his vacant rambling. But things are changing fast; it's becoming impossible to deny... people are waking up.

@Flyingsaucesir Congress currently has 139 members who deny climate science, 30 in the Senate. I'm not sure how fast, or even if, that number will go down, but it seems unlikely it'll occur fast enough.

@Flyingsaucesir Another major problem is that this is a global problem that is not being treated with a global solution. Trump stoked the fires of "Why should we work to solve this problem when China is doing the exact opposite to gain a financial and competitive advantage over us" and many people agreed with him. Countries like Brazil aren't compensated for maintaining their rainforest, so they're chopping it down at record pace. And who can blame them? If the benefits of the Rainforest are going to be enjoyed by everyone, than the profits from not having large swaths of protected land should also be shared. But people, especially those that make up our governments, are too selfish, stupid, and shortsighted. No matter how possible people think a solution to this is, they should be taking measures to mitigate how bad the negative effects will impact them, which I think is the primary reason to not have kids. Not that population collapse wouldn't help, but if there is a catastrophic outcome anyway, you're not subjecting a loved one to live through a potentially horrible existence.

@ChestRockfield True, true, all too true. I would not bet against things getting ugly. They already are ugly. Will they become catastrophic? Probably. Does it absolutely have to be this way? No. I guess that's what makes this situation so tragic. I'm glad I decided long ago not to have kids.

@Flyingsaucesir
Oddly enough, I was just scrolling through whatever Google calls their feed and found this...
[news.yahoo.com]

@ChestRockfield Definitely a bleak outlook.

That is more because Walmart is too cheap to hire enough employees for good customer service.

@snytiger6 ok, I was just being sarcastic anyway.