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Questions posed by a left-leaning progressive for Libertarians, answered by a Libertarian:

Some years back the website Salon, a known progressive-left opinion site, had a writer by the name of RJ Eskow who did an article questioning some Libertarian stances, and this Libertarian is more than happy to answer his (and any other progressive socialists out there) questions, or more directly debunk Eskow's rather crude assertions. Firstly, this is the link to Eskow's original article that I'm referring to- [salon.com]

Would like to point out that independent fact checkers do not rate Salon very high in factual reporting, and here's the link to that source- [mediabiasfactcheck.com]

If you are looking for non-biased information on Libertarian philosophy, I'd recommend the site Libertarianism.org, which is rated higher on factual reporting from independent fact checkers, and here is the link to that source- [mediabiasfactcheck.com]

Also, the following post is geared towards fellow Americans, as the topic largely pertains to American politics, and it is a somewhat lengthy read.

That aside, let's get to Eskow's first question, and all of Eskow's questions will be in quotation marks. "Are unions, political parties, elections, and social movements like Occupy examples of spontaneous order?" No, rather they are examples of meticulous organization. Political parties are constantly organizing and planning with their respective candidates, and Elections are certainly an organized event. A worker's union is an organization of individuals and could hardly be considered spontaneous, and same is true with social justice movements. Organizations/entities such as Black Lives Matter, the Proud Boys, or ANTIFA did not just materialize over night, it took considerable planning and organizing first in order to build them up into the organizations/entities they are today.

"Is a libertarian willing to admit that production is the result of many forces, each of which should be recognized and rewarded?" Yes and no, and for the most part in Libertarian philosophy there is no actual conflict of interest on that much. If an individual believes it necessary to organize a worker's union, then said individual should be free to do so, just as long as no others are forced or coerced into joining such a union. Yes, for the large corporations like WalMart production is the result of many forces, and wealth is built-up through such as well, but what about small businesses in which only a few family members work at? Eskow left that one out. Regarding small businesses, of which there are many in the US, production/profits are not necessarily the result of multiple forces, and in such cases the individual small business owners are responsible for accumulating their own wealth. For example, my maternal grandparents owned a small sandwich shop (which presently is a pizzeria, not owned by the family anymore though) many decades ago, and it was just my grandparents and one of their kids (who happened to be my mother) who ran the shop. Even though it was just the three of them, in a few short years they were able to accumulate a considerable amount of wealth, and became the most successful sandwich shop in town sending any local competitors packing. Point is, not all situations require many forces in order for production to take place, there are plenty of small business owners who accumulated considerable wealth minus the need to hire employees. On a side note, since you're inclined to believe that Libertarians are mostly selfish cads who almost always put their own needs first, here's a quick fact about my past. In my early 20s I had worked a side gig as an erotic male performer, and made some decent tips alot of which I gave to charities benefitting breast cancer research and victims of domestic abuse. Am I selfish for doing such, as technically I did capitalize on my looks a bit there in order to generate some funds in which to give to charity? You see, capitalism is not always a bad or selfish thing, as one could certainly seek to capitalize for a totally selfless cause, which is precisely what I did there.

"Is our libertarian willing to acknowledge that workers who bargain for their services, individually and collectively, are also employing market forces?" Not necessarily. Market forces push prices up when supply declines and demand rises, and drive them down when supply grows or demand contracts. There need not be any exclusive connection between workers who are bargaining for their services, with the concept of supply and demand when it comes to consumer goods, as collective bargaining and consumer goods are two very different things. As for the victims of illegal deeds at the hands of large corporations, there are multiple laws on the books criminalizing such acts and so far those laws have failed to protect consumers as ruthless individuals find creative ways to circumvent the laws. The progressive would argue that de-regulation leads to more victims, but the Libertarian would argue that laws designed to curb such practices already exist and have done nothing to stop the greedy slobs who are determined to take advantage of others.

"Is our libertarian willing to admit that a “free market” needs regulation?" No, as there already are many regulations in place meant to protect the consumers, and yet every day across the country said laws are broken without incident and many individuals find themselves victims to various scams and frauds. What would rationally make Eskow think that more regulations would solve the problem? On the flip side, I'd like to throw the same question right back at him, in the form of... do you think certain individual choices that could result in some controversial actions require regulations? Like say, abortion procedures, which could conceivably be dangerous to women under certain circumstances. I'm willing to bet I'd get a resounding no to that question, and rightly so by the way as currently abortion procedures are heavily regulated and such regulations have not stopped determined women who are willing to sidestep the laws in favor of looking out for her own welfare. Laws and regulations mean absolutely nothing to those who will do whatever it is they want to do, which is why there is such a thing as a criminal, but I digress, that's a whole other dilemma for the pro bigger Government crowd.

"Does our libertarian believe in democracy? If yes, explain what’s wrong with governments that regulate." As things currently stand, democracy by definition is little more than a pipe dream, believed only by those who believe that Government/the politicians would never lie to or sell them out for either personal gain or for convenience. To those of you out there who support abortion rights for women, how's that there democracy working out for you, eh? I mean... it's not like women are rapidly losing their bodily autonomy rights due to a crooked democracy, right? Guess I'm just imagining that abortion rights recently have come under serious attack. The two-political Party monopoly in the US has and continues to habitually violate our individual rights and rob us blind through excess taxes all due to the fact that those in positions of power and authority for some reason cannot adhere to a fiscally responsible budget, which in turn is driving up the national debt. And no, democracy should not be replaced by rule of the wealthy elite, it should be replaced on a voluntary basis where we all arrive to a consensus minus a select few individuals (aka, politicians and Government authorities) supposedly chosen to make decisions for everyone. As for Eskow's rant about Peter Thiel, that's pretty much an admission that big Government has and continues to aid and abet ruthless individuals who seek to take advantage of those who possess lesser wealth, which is hardly a benevolent thing for the average working class American. Now, wouldn't you think that if Government was truly setup to help and serve the citizens, that sort of thing would be virtually non-existent? Please note my restraint on how these politicians, both Democrat and Republican, are getting richer at your expense off of your tax dollars. It's socialism for the rich... your taxes keep going up while needless Government spending increases, consumer protection laws are failing because such is a joke to begin with, and all for what exactly? So scuzbags like Nancy Pelosi can flaunt $13 pints of ice cream while the average middle class working American languished under a Covid lockdown? Don't believe me? Still think politicians like Pelosi are a saint and not some worthless degenerate, I humbly suggest you read this- [heavy.com]

"Does our libertarian use wealth that wouldn’t exist without government in order to preach against the role of government?" No, and what wealth (sources) exactly are we talking about? The US Dollar holds the value it currently has due to demand for it, thus the USD only has value because a majority of the people believe it holds some sort of value, but take away the demand (faith in its overall value) and what do we have left? Surely a dilemma the Government would have no simplistic solution for. The USD's value is also largely based on the overall health of the economy, and when the economy is lagging people lose faith in just how much value the USD holds. Another possible factor to consider is psychology, people are being psychologically conditioned to believe the USD holds a certain value, simply because the Government says so. Additionally, does Eskow honestly believe all fiat currencies are exclusively created by the Federal Government, and that there could be no exceptions to that? If so, how does one then explain cryptocurrencies, namely Bitcoin, which was invented by a private entity and not a Governing body? Presently, there are hundreds of cryptocurrencies out there, and contrary to some popular beliefs and that of which I personally could attest to, Bitcoin is a very real currency that can easily be exchanged for other currencies including the USD on various crypto exchanges. I know that to be true, as since 2016 when I first started to invest in Bitcoin and in the time since I've been able to turn some nice profits. It's also worth pointing out that no Government on the face of this Earth has the power to fully regulate or control all crypto exchanges, as there are too many potential outlets in which to circumvent any regulations a governing body may attempt to pass. So in short, fiat currencies are not exclusively created by the Federal Government, and modern technology has and continues to pave way for privately created currencies.

"Does our libertarian reject any and all government protection for his intellectual property?" Yes, I can take care of myself, and let me ask you this... exactly just how effective have the Government's intellectual property rights laws been? There's virtually zero cases of copyright infringement due to the Government's laws, right? Oh that's right... there have been and continue to be thousands of copyright infringement cases a year, and doesn't look like that's going to improve anytime soon. So the real question that should be asked here is, do we really need Government protection of that sort knowing full well the Government's regulations have let down thousands of people it claimed it could protect with its laws? Also, in a voluntary Libertarian society, I wonder just how much in demand intellectual property rights would even be, knowing that one individual could invent something useful and either share it with the rest of the community in order to benefit everyone or exchange said invention for a service or product from another? If it's mutually agreed upon, then it could work, and if the general idea is to exchange a service or consumer goods, I wonder just how important copyright laws would be then? Just wondering that part out loud, and it bears some more consideration. That musing aside, suffice to say, the Government would not absolutely be necessary to provide for such protections knowing full well the Government's regulations on the matter don't exactly have a desirable track record for dependability.

"Does our libertarian recognize that democracy is a form of marketplace?" Yes, I do as a matter of fact. Now... are you aware that as the current system stands, democracy as we know it is a rigged marketplace, rigged in favor of the political elites? People think they can choose the ideal candidate for the job, when in reality no such thing exists and the politicians only keep getting richer and richer at the expense of the taxpayers. Both Democrat and Republican politicians have been selling the average working class American up the river for decades now, and it's only getting worse by the day. I've already briefly mentioned a few examples above, ranging from certain political elites who flaunt their materialism during times when average Americans were losing their jobs and forced to live on a tighter budget, to political elites who are gradually eroding away certain individual rights in an effort to limit the choices people could make. So... is the "Democratic marketplace" a genuinely flawless utopia? It sure doesn't sound like it to me. While some corporate corruption (aka crony capitalism, which runs afoul of Libertarian principles) does play a role in all that, a big reason why the democratic process is so flawed is also due in part to failure on Government's part, as big Government has yet to find a semi-permanent solution to said corruption in society. Also, no Libertarian that I know of is celebrating money for money's sake (the supposed corrupting influence of money), and we strive to work together to find longterm solutions to the problems in society we all face. Big corporations aren't acceptable either per se, and the Government enabled such corporations to begin with via Government handouts/bailouts. The Government created that monster, as without aid from the Government I somehow doubt said huge corporations would have had the means to become big and powerful in the first place. Big corporations have been conducting assaults on American's individual liberties, Eskow claimed. Uh no, last time I checked some of the most integral individual rights like bodily autonomy and Second Amendment rights have been undermined by governing powers at the Federal/State/and local levels. If anything, some of those mega institutions have gone along for the ride violating American's individual rights due to pressure from political correctness and shaming campaigns carried-out by the governing powers that be, after the Government itself made the first move to undermine our individual rights.

"Does our libertarian recognize that large corporations are a threat to our freedoms? Yes, and do you realize that once Government gives any sort of aid to mega corporations, in turn the Government itself becomes a dangerous institution by being an enabler of such? Enablers are just as guilty as the perpetrators are. When big Government is allowed to go unchecked, that opens the door to all sorts of abuses of power and the citizens losing their civil rights, which is precisely what's been going on for some time now. Additionally, mega corporations are hardly the only greedy slobs out there, and over the last fifty or so years now worker unions (both public and private, but the latter of the two may be the worst) have become rather greedy themselves. Some of these union bosses remind me of mafia dons, and those jerks have committed numerous crimes from embezzlement to filing false reports to keeping false records to extortionate picketing to deprivation of rights by means of violence, to name a few. So if you want to criticize large companies for their unscrupulous ways of treating their employees at times, make sure you also take the time to condemn unions too, as unions these days are far removed from being totally pro employee. Here are a few good sources that documented the less than shining side to unions- [unionfacts.com]
[unionfacts.com]

"Ayn Rand was an adamant opponent of good works, writing that “The man who attempts to live for others is a dependent. He is a parasite in motive and makes parasites of those he serves.” That raises another test for our libertarian: Does he think that Rand was off the mark on this one, or does he agree that historical figures like King and Gandhi were “parasites”?" What makes you think that all Libertarians agree with all of Rand's views? There's debate as to whether or not Rand was truly Libertarian in the sense or flat out hardline conservative. That said, her own views are not necessarily the views of every other Libertarian out there. If anything, Rand was more objectivist than outright Libertarian, as she believed that libertarianism doesn't actually share in the political values of objectivism, and likewise the Libertarians weren't exactly thrilled with Rand's objectivism. While Atlas Shrugged was an interesting piece, personally speaking I did not like Rand as an individual, and I also question some of her views. Don't conflate an objectivist with a Libertarian.

"If you believe in the free market, why weren’t you willing to accept as final the judgment against libertarianism rendered decades ago in the free and unfettered marketplace of ideas?" Eskow should speak for himself, as that surely sounds like strictly his opinion on the matter, and not the reality of the situation. I've got news for you dude... libertarianism is alive and well in the US whether you like it or not, and there are far more of us out there than you realize. The Libertarian Party in the US is the third largest political Party, and steadily increasing membership as more Americans get totally fed up with the two-Party Government monopoly. We won't stay silent either, not until you realize your democracy is an elaborate sham that is playing you for a fool, and turning you against your fellow Americans all the while stripping you of your natural-born rights. Neither the far-left progressives or hardline conservatives are actively fighting for your rights, which based on mere observations alone should at this point be self-evident. Of course, in order to arrive at that conclusion, one would first have to set aside any personal biases they may have and actually think for themselves minus any mainstream media influences.

Now, I have my own bonus question for progressives like Eskow. Since you favor democracy and bigger Government so much, how do you rationally (keyword there being rationally) justify being in favor of the current system while simultaneously claiming that the very same system is also racist and working against minority populations and that of which is beyond any redemption? It surely can't be both of those, so which is it? Upon reviewing and genuinely considering my responses to your questions, maybe just maybe you will come to the realization that the libertarians are not your adversary, and that like you we too are concerned about the issues we all face in society, it's just that we may take a different path than you do in reaching a viable solution to said problems is all, and diversity is always a good thing right? That said, I can only hope you arrive to that realization before it becomes too late to do anything about the widespread corruption among the political elites, as with each passing day our individual rights keep getting eroded away. You may hate us, but we don't hate you, and should the day ever come that you get to witness your precious democracy fall to its knees due to unchecked corruption, you just might need our help in putting things back together again.

Your friend,
The Renegade Libertarian

SpikeTalon 9 Aug 1
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5 comments

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0

Spike, you wrote “ I'm just a renegade Libertarian, that's all you need to know.”

It’s a heap less than I want to know about people who want me to share my power with them.

Take out “renegade” and it’s still a heap less than I want to know.

Well... I could have left the bio description part totally blank, and I'm sure someone out there still would have found reason to complain about that too. Only gave an accurate as possible and brief description about myself, and figured if someone wanted to know additional details they would surely ask. Not sure what you meant by sharing your power with others there.

0

I like the Truth in Labeling Law, the Child Labor law, the Pure Food and Drug Law and other laws -the Libertarians won’t tell us they want to repeal.

And BTW, your post is too long and your motives too suspect to read.

Be happy that the less ideological parties steal some of your initiatives.

As for it being long, sometimes going into deeper detail is necessary to fully communicate my points. Not sure what was suspect about it.

2

I dunno.......I like consumer protection laws. I don't really want to end up fucked outta my 401 & Roth

twill Level 7 Aug 1, 2022

It's not that I don't like such laws either, it's just when I still witness said laws getting violated regardless I question just how much protection such truly affords? Despite the laws, who's to say some day down the road you won't somehow get cheated out of those you mentioned? I hope that's never the case for you, but these days you never know. As they say, laws/rules were meant to be broken.

@SpikeTalon. Lack of enforcement, indeed.

Their answer to not being accountable is .. .pass .more laws!

0

Hmmm, a Mixture of Libertarian and Anarchism! both are failed plans to Run a Modern Country

Diaco Level 7 Aug 1, 2022

Neither of those were ever fully implemented in the USA, so no one can say for sure both would fail as they've yet to be given a chance.

On the other hand, I do know this much... our democratic system sure is failing us, from totally crooked politicians to Government agencies violating our rights to rogue Court justices to police brutality to a steep increase in violent crime to increasing cases of various addictions etc and the list goes on. We are more divided now than ever, some of the most well known cities in the country (most of which run by Democrats) see a disturbing level of violent crime and very unhappy citizens who feel they've nothing positive to look forward to. I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture.

I've no qualms with you believing libertarianism is just a dream, but I could easily make a case that our current system of politics has so far failed miserably, and that the goals of our democracy as it stands is also nothing more than a mere dream. In the meantime, the cultural divide is growing larger, and that's what worries me.

@SpikeTalon Democracy is the best of the worst, the other side is Dictatorship!
Today USA is divided because of faults, wrongs,... and OF COURSE China and Russia influences!!! it's obvious how it's easy to trigger Americans!
Americans forgot to Love their Flag, their Nation and their Democracy!
but nowadays used to worship a person as savior instead of trusting a system and try to fix it's flaws.

“A republic if you can keep it”

@Diaco If you can keep it, that's the trick. Too many Americans have lost sight of that.

Hhmn, not sure about that, at times it sure feels like I'm living under a dictatorship based on some of the things I've witnessed over the last ten or so years now. Makes me leery...

Maybe perhaps I'm a bit too liberal when it comes to considering alternatives for when the current system is not working out as intended, and my dreams or visions might be a bit too much. That said, can't help but think that once we stop dreaming big, we lose sight of our humanity. Many things that now exist in the world were at one point mere dreams, but eventually became reality due to hard work and determination, and a will to not ever give up. If we can send someone up into outer space, then I think we could find a way to resolve the political issues.

I'm on a mission, and can't rest until some serious changes are made. That wouldn't be the first time I got called a dreamer. Back in 2016 most of my friends thought I was totally off my rocker when I started investing in Bitcoin, but in a few short years I proved them wrong when the value of Btc skyrocketed after which I cashed-out on some decent profits.

Hope springs eternal, and I sure hope our Republic can hang in there. The suspense though...

@SpikeTalon

I wouldn't depend on the American dream, one has to be asleep to experience it. I follow my own dreams, because without our own dreams, one may loose their mind.

@Castlepaloma The late comedian George Carlin once stated something to that extent, that you have to be asleep in order to experience the American dream, and he was a pretty intelligent guy. Far too many are so reliant on and feel a part of the current system that they will fight tooth and nail to make sure they never have to part ways with the system, at any and all cost, and over the years I've actually found that some of them are afraid of certain concepts that propose more individual freedoms. If it's not religion that human beings are dependent on, then it's something else and in particular political or social constructs that produce dependency. The only problem with a perceived lesser evil is that it's still an evil. Like you, I try to pursue my dreams, regardless of what others may think.

@SpikeTalon

It's baffling how many here put me down for my practice and dreams in healthy foods, natural affordable housing and freedom of chioce and expression. So many envy the greedy bastards and dishonest politicians. We will find out if it's the person with the most toys or jrather the one with the most joys in the end who wins.

2

We need to clean house in Washington Spike and we likely will need term limits to get it done. And it’s not
Just elected officials who need to be removed it a whole host of government employees. The FBI in particular has become very corrupt.

From the politicians all the way to certain Government agencies, the corruption is split thick, and yes something does need to be done about that before it's too late.

Regulatory agencies doing the jobs of elected officials, or simply not being monitored/ corrected by elected officials

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