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Curious if any of you agree with my take on prayer. I think there may be some value.

First, I don’t think there is anyone listening on the other end. There isn’t going to be any divine response. The idea that some God has the capability of listening to billions of prayers and responding to them all at the same time is nonsensical.

However, I think there is something to the power of positive thinking.

For example, say someone is suffering from some physical ailment and firmly believes his prayer and the prayers of others, on his behalf, can result in a godly cure. I think the power of positive thinking might have a positive effect on helping to cure himself.

What do you think? Are some prayers by fervent believers worth the effort?

raymondahult 5 Oct 28
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20 comments

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1

We, who don't believe in God, think praying is nonsensical. For those who believe, it's something they feel it helps them. It gives them a little bit of psychological strength to endure the things they are going through. I simply respect and don't judge too much.

I agree completely.

1

By definition, prayer expects that there is someone listening on the other end. You don't pray to the air, you pray to someone.

If you like the idea of introspection, or meditation, or positive thinking, use those words.

Good point

2

...feel good for doing nothing

That's about it

2

... and one more...
[nytimes.com]

2

Excellent answers by Hemant Mehta:

0

Statistically if you have stage 4 pancreatic cancer, you’re chances of survival are like 3%? How many people do you know that have been diagnosed with stage 4 pancreatic cancer and prayed it away?!👀

0

Prayers is make believe. Even after something suitable happens, it is still make believe.

Why did Homo sapiens evolve the capacity for make believe?

2

The term prayer is too associated with a diety. Especially for this audience. If prayer worked, then why do we have hospitals and doctors???

Nothing wrong with a firm determination though.

2

Beyond the positive thinking vibe, can the metaphysical possibilities be refuted?

6

I'm not a fan of praying to a supernatural entity to change reality, but I do think that knowing people I care about generally hope I will recover from an ailment quickly doesn't change the length of the illness but makes me feel better during the suffering knowing people care about me and do wish for me to survive it so they can spend time with me again.

People who believe in the power of prayer might also think that time heals all wounds, but they just enjoy thinking they are doing something to speed it along. Yes, when people pray, the illness or terror does end at some point, whether in recovery or death. What will be will be.

Time spent in prayer could also be spent by researching for cures, remedies, solutions. In government conflict a letter to a politician, or a vote can be an act toward righting the wrongs.

For personal conflict, a "to do" list or "letter to self" might help organize feelings and sometimes just saying them out loud to others can help alleviate the stress and equalize feelings again.

On social media "liking" a post can give the poster the feeling that what they had to say was important and creates a tiny bit of connection between people who are otherwise alone.

For people who don't have many meaningful connections, I suppose talking to an unknown higher power might give comfort. To each their own. Just don't ask me to participate in the prayer.

My feeling is that if we don't like a particular circumstance, we should do what we can to change the circumstance. Praying isn't really going to tangibly help, but being in a good head space might help and if saying a prayer or a mantra helps one to get in that good head space, then fine. I admit to having some short mantras I say to myself to keep me in a good emotional place.

All great points

4

Prayer is an insidious indoctrination tool. To say it is harmless is wrong.
Indoctrination is the formal instruction into a doctrine so you may be a member of a group. The favoured tool for learning is repetition in message and ritual.
Prayer is a ritual that reinforces the doctrines message. Young minds are pliable so teach them to pray. Prayer is a repetitive ritual that;

  1. Reinforce the #1 important part of the doctrine................there is a "God"
  2. Confirm you are submissive to this "God"
  3. Confirms the "God" demands worship.

Looking at other comments here, I am unsure if prayer should be classed as "positive thinking". More a sign of helpless desperation eg willing to try anything.
The thing with indoctrination is it affects individuals in different ways; some fall for it fully with others less so. Prayer is the first ritual taught to kids to get them with the program aka join the group and learn their rules and laws aka doctrine.
Luckily, most people grow up and drop the daily ritual of prayer they were instructed to do as children. Some never do. The religion of Islam has really used this indoctrination tool to advantage, praying up to 5 times a day, daily rituals, to ensure the doctrine remains foremost in peoples mind.
Prayer is very far from an innocent pastime that doesn't hurt anyone.

puff Level 8 Oct 28, 2023

Everything has a positive and a negative to it. You have listed many of the negatives of how prayer can be used. Prayer is not specifically towards a deity, it has been focused on Mother Nature and in finding inner strength.
Prayer is the method. It may be a call to a deity or to focus one's mind to gain inner peace, self-control, encouragement, etc.

“The evolution of costly displays, cooperation and religion: credibility enhancing displays and their implications for cultural evolution”

[sciencedirect.com]

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@Betty Agree, as long it does not become ritualised. Repetitive.

1

“Medical research has shown that state of mind plays an important role in the development of disease. For example, stress is known to increase blood pressure, which in turn is a risk factor for heart disease. So, just as the mind can contribute to a physical disorder, it can also contribute to its cure.”

[betterhealth.vic.gov.au]

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skado Level 9 Oct 28, 2023

Of course positive thinking can affect stress-related diseases as well as the nervous system, muscles, skelatal things, as well as mental health and even cancers, but beyond that stuff, I doubt it will affect most other physical problems or disorders.. Genetics and environmental factors, such as pollution and exposure to toxic chemicals, are much more important factors than a positive attitude..

4

I recall a survey carried in a hospital where heart surgery was carried out . All of the patients had prayers said on their behalf but only half of them were told this. It was found that those who were told did slightly less well than those who were not told. Of course this was an unscientific study and it may just have been coincidence but interesting none the less

I don't think it was unscientific. It was the largest study ever on intercessory prayer. There were actually 3 groups, those that were told they'd get prayers and did, and those that were told they may, half who did and half who didn't.

Some religious folks who didn't like the results said, basically, that God works in mysterious ways, so the results showing prayer doesn't work doesn't actually mean prayer doesn't work. Their backdoor in and of itself, to me, also shows prayer doesn't work. If God will not help those that have a ton of prayers asking for help, then it kinda goes to show god would just do whatever he wants regardless of what anyone prays to him for, thereby again proving prayer doesn't work.

6

It is often said that prayer is an act of faith whilst the opposite is actually true.
Let me explain: God is hypothetically omnipotent and omniscient, yeah? So why ask?
If you are sitting with an old friend on the porch and drinking a beverage or two, do you need to ask them to refill your glass? No, if they are good/old friends, they just do it. Similarly, an all-knowing, all-seeing god would not require anyone's supplication to intervene. They would be the great god Nike and just do it.
Prayer is not an act of faith, it is an act of doubt.

Also, since he knows everything, he already knows if he will help, and who will pray, so doesn't that kinda make the praying and soliciting for prayers irrelevant? Gee, it's almost like we don't actually have free will and everything is deterministic even if you believe in god. Crazy.

@ChestRockfield Pray it is not so 😉

4

My opinion--positive thinking can help oneself....not the neighbor's problems...not the climate change...Aunt Polly's psoriasis, etc.

Am skeptical about even the positive thinking, at least when it comes to physical ailments. Maybe it does make a diff in coping with mental health issues, and interpersonal problems, etc., of course. But beyond that, I doubt it does.

@TomMcGiverin You're absolutely right....I wasn't thinking of health issues (other than successfully losing weight.) Listening to ourselves holding positive thoughts can change moods, improve one's self-image...that sort of thing.

7

My opinion~
I think prayer is a form of meditation. When fear and anxiety are overwhelming then a prayer can help focus that energy and maintain some control over emotions. It doesn't effect the outcome but it can help a person get through a stressful event.

Betty Level 8 Oct 28, 2023

I would have to dig out the research, but I think your opinion is backed by studies in the last decade. A form of meditation is the key idea here.

1

Positive thinking is good but prayer is where you close your eyes and lower your head and then start talking to yourself. You are not supposed to look (don't know why) but you can do this silently or out loud.

3

Hope can help create a positive attitude, which in turn can help make the best of a bad situation. So there's that.

On the other hand, one study I heard about found that people in hospital who knew people were praying for them did worse (failed to improve or got sicker or died) while those who did not know of any prayers for them did better.

All I know is if I were the patient, and I knew people were praying for my recovery, I would take that as a signal that I was really, desperately sick. And I would also have zero faith that the prayers would cause a supernatural intervention on my behalf. So for me, prayer would probably have a net negative impact on my mental state and thus not be helpful to my physical state.

9

When you watch an old movie and a baby is being born. The midwife/doctor will ask the dad to boil water. This is not because there is any need for boiling water, it is to give him something to do and get him out from underfoot. If a prayer can give someone the illusion that they are doing something to help, so be it. But only if there is nothing else to be done. Perhaps donating blood could help someone else if not their loved one. Maybe looking after their kids/pets/home whilst they are in hospital would offer more practical help? At worst is the dangerous idea that prayers can substitute for real medical care and that is an all too prevalent situation.

4

Praying means buying into self-delusion, which is hugely seductive and very hard to escape. If you can't stop praying, at least try to hold onto some shred of reality by acknowledging it is BS.

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