Just following orders will be his defense should it ever come to that, didn't work in Nuremburg.

It's looking more and more like Berlin, circa 1938.

@Palacinky what??? the slaughter was engineered by the Palestinian Authority (with backing from Iran and others) that encouraged unarmed civilians to amass and charge the Israeli borders knowing full well the Israelis are armed and will protect their borders.

the embassy rollout was engineered by trump, fundamentalists and other hard liners who adhere to a narrow role of Israel as a puppet of the West.

@crazycurlz Blame the victims?

@Gareth don't be dense. This isn't about blame. It's about taking in the whole picture. If you're in the camp that Israel is the only responsible party...we got nothin' further to discuss. That's a disappointment.

@crazycurlz "the slaughter was engineered by the Palestinian Authority"... how is that not about blame?

@Gareth you are seeing the Palestinian Authority as the victims. I don't. They yield more power that the world opinion wants to acknowledge, especially in their close tie to Iran which is a murderous power. It's the Palestinians who are the victims and the Israeli people, both separate from their government. The Palestinian Authority sets up their own people with beliefs in suicide missions. That's PR. World opinion is inflamed by this.

@crazycurlz I understand you as trying to say that the Palestinians are victims of their own elected politicians. I choose to look at the people who pulled the triggers when over 2,000 people are shot, many fatally, many children.

@Gareth I know you do. And I believe there's a lot more to this whole dynamic than simply Israelis killing innocent people. Don't get me wrong, they are unarmed civilians. But it's not the same as a Tiananmen Square issue. They are unarmed and there for a reason. These people have a government, a body to represent them and they have allies in the world, powerful allies. They refuse to acknowledge the country of Israel and that's the failing on their side. They function as an occupied people and have no vision for themselves have creating a country beside Israel. Israel exists.

@crazycurlz A man is in uniform and has a gun. An officer orders him to shoot. He has a choice - he can fire or not, aim high or low. He chooses to aim at another human being, maybe a hundred yards away, maybe picking up a stone or waving a flag. He shoots and the man dies. Whether by civil, military or international law, a crime has been committed; a murder or war crime depending on the jurisdiction. The soldier made his moral choice, now we have to make ours. We can condemn his action and ask for justice or we can say "It's complicated, there's history, there's context......" (in other words "shit happens" ). I choose to condemn and ask for justice.

@Gareth Unfortunately this isn't the first time this has happened and it's been over a lot of years. At some point, one would hope, the people who are oppressed, who have representation on the world stage BTW (unlike the situation in Nazi Germany which is what this is often compared to) would take a different tactic to get the peace they want...maybe they should ally themselves with other than terrorist organizations or Iran? Of course, I'm just speculating.
Thanks for discussion Gareth.

They have become the mirror of the thing they hate.

@jorj he just set up an embassy in jerusalem.

Beautifully written. I understand the plight of Jewish people throughout the centuries. The pogroms which escalated to the Holocaust are enough to make anyone seek revenge. But that will never be the answer. Fundamentalism in any religion or lifestyle is exceedingly dangerous. I wonder what it is going to take for us all to stop, take a moment, look at the other and realize that we are all fit from similar DNA.

Silver grow some balls and get some balance in your diatribe, man. Over and over I have to educate you that there are so many players in this game it can't fall on the backs of the 'Zionists'. Take off your narrow view intellectualism. The Palestinian Authority just set up their people to run at the border of Israel unarmed knowing full well Israel would protect its borders. Stop and think a minute. Why would the Palestinians knowingly lead their people to slaughter? Would you do that if you were in charge? Radical leadership on all sides. Clearly Netanyahu has to be replaced but so do the leaders of the Palestinians.
Mossab Hassan Yousef

@AmelieMatisse while ever we have armies of Israeli apologists like @Crazycurls there will never be peace for the region.

@crazycurlz you, @Flettie and @Silver1wun are a riot. @crazycurlz I may have to pass my photo on to you

@AmelieMatisse Our DNA and composition of our creaturehood are natural manifestations of life energy. They are not, however, fit for optimal realization on an artificial platform that is unnatural and androcentric.. Unfortunately we analyze and evaluate validity with the platform as ground zero of what is 'supposed to be'. It is actually artificial and human contrived.

@crazycurlz Based on your intensity of indoctrination with the false narrative Meshuggie, I see no way that you're going to be able to 'educate' me. You know a lot that is not so. Better than knowing nothing, I guess. Knowledge is knowing a lot that is so.

Palestinians aren't 'being led' to those fences. Many thousands of them are converging out of frustration in hopes of their sacrifices disclosing to the world the barbarity of the racist, Zionist regime that has made their lives a living Hell.

The world IS finally beginning to see what the USA and Micronesia are blind to. Woe be a cop in the USA who shoots down in cold blood an unarmed civilian for 'getting too close to a fence'. The Emperor is naked. The 110 year old fanatic ideology is dangling for all to see.

@Silver1wun bullshit to the reason the Palestinians are running to the border. Frustration? They've bought the narrative of their leadership that PR self-sacrifice is their best route to taking back Israel. The Palestinians are supported throughout the world and the world confines them to the Palestinian Conflict until it is resolved by wiping out Israel. That is their one and only goal.
Silver, you are blinded by prejudice. Both the Israelis and Palestinians are sold a bill of goods. The Palestinian Authority abuses their power just like Netanyahu does, making allies to destroy the 'enemy' rather than conceding that the enemy exists and must be handled with diplomacy. You are blinded by your prejudice believing that the Palestinians are powerless. They garner their power from countries that support keeping the Palestinians in their hole until Israel is obliterated.

@crazycurlz Israel in danger of being obliterated? That is a condition propagated by Zionists but at odds with the record. It is and even in '48 was a total myth. I'll not bore you with the statistics. They can easily be found in a number of books. One being 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' Ilan Pappe, Phd. Another, a very readable three volume work by Alan Hart 'Zionism, the Real Enemy of the Jews' There are more but that can get you started. Both are well documented.

@EEEE Israel shares the infamy of the Third Reich of having no fixed borders because of constant conquest, ethnic cleansing, ghettoizing populations and confiscating their properties and possessions. The ink was barely dry on the 'partition' before they were grabbing land partitioned for Arabs and were committing mass murders and expulsions. Over a quarter of the three quarters of a million non-Jewish Palestine residents had already been dispatched by May of '48 when the Zionists declared independence. They haven't acknowledged fixed borders since.

It's hard to imagine that it is an accident, if you throw gas on a small fire you have to expect that you will get an inferno.

If they can somehow manage to get a war going with Iran which drags Russia and China into the fray we can have a real shit storm in next to no time flat.

@Surfpirate Anythings possible.

@NotConvinced I wish you were wrong and me along with you but I think we are right about this agenda. It doesn't bode well for the future.

This area seems more so about ideology! Preserving it, at any cost to human beings!

@Freedompath Palestine wasn't destroyed because they had their ideas stolen.

@daddy2two their ideas are ‘less than’ in the eyes of Israel! Then they take the land!

@Freedompath I have no idea what that means.

@daddy2two the Palestinian’s social order does not compute with Israel (Jews). They are Muslim... they are not accepted as equals in any way.

@Freedompath

Sounds like a straw person to me. This is always framed in terms of security in Israeli politics, not some imagined brand of dehumanizing or dominant social Darwinism. The Israelis have simply figured from the beginning that the middle eastern world could give easily give up enough land to allow Israelis to have a sense of security. They just simply take a little bit more whenever they need it.

This is not dehumanizing, it is a brutal tribalism over land rights.

@daddy2two what about the blockade by Israel and Egypt? 700,00-850,000, were forced off their land 70yrs ago and not allowed to return! We have a different opinion on what constitutes dehumanizing? People crammed into a small space is dehumanizing to me!

@Freedompath Dehumanizing is about denying that one is of the same species as the target. There must be an implication that they are somehow less than human.

What you described is certainly abuse. Even perhaps wanton cruelty and disregard for life. Those things are not equivalent to an ideological attempt to strip a target of it's obvious humanity.

I imagine that there are haters on both sides who lack appreciation for the other side's humanity. Yet that is still not how this conflict has been framed.

What I am curious about, tho... Do you have a need or desire for this to be dehumanizing in particular? If so, why? It's not like we disagree on it being utterly wrong.

@daddy2two I have no desire one way or the other...what a strange question?! The way you are framing the question needs personal contact! I have just spent the last month moving and this subject matter takes more time to get into with deeper thought, than I can do at this time!! But, I do know what dehumanizing is...and it can be disguised into a pretzel!

@Freedompath Perhaps when you have more time you might explain why I can't ask a simple question w/o IRL contact or what your case is for dehanization being either the driving force or even the ostensible justification for this conflict. Because you haven't made one here, just repeated claims of seeing it as self-evident.

@daddy2two you are free to ask whatever question you wish, I do not seem to understand what point you are making, it is really very simply, I do not understand your communication. You will need to find someone who can grasp where you are coming from! But, I owe you nothing and you keep digging as if I do!

@Freedompath when you make claims, you owe the audience an explanation. I hope you have a wonderful week.

@daddy2two I owe you nothing and I am giving my informed opinion, which is as good as the one you offer! I have many more years observing this situation, than you, that counts for something! Furthermore, why are you so insistent that I debate you...I simply have no interest in doing so! Things presented here can be taken to heart or dropped, you seem not to understand that! I don’t need to prove anything to YOU and I am baffled as to why you seem to think I should? I don’t relate well, with people who push me up against the wall! By force... is not free thinking or exchange!

@Freedompath I have no idea what you are talking about. Have a nice week.

@Freedompath I was going to let this go, but I decided that I shouldn't.

YOU ARE TOTALLY BEING AGEIST HERE:

" I have many more years observing this situation, than you, that counts for something!"

I don't expect you to necessarily take being called out about it very well. In that regard I apologise if I offended you before. It was not my intention. My intention was to prod you into considering the epistemology of your beliefs about this issue and add some rigor to the conversation. Not to wield a cudgel or spread my own opinion.

@Freedompath I was going to let this go, but I decided that I shouldn't.

YOU ARE TOTALLY BEING AGEIST HERE:

" I have many more years observing this situation, than you, that counts for something!"

I don't expect you to necessarily take being called out about it very well. In that regard I apologise if I offended you before. It was not my intention. My intention was to prod you into considering the epistemology of your beliefs about this issue and add some rigor to the conversation. Not to wield a cudgel or spread my own opinion.

@2two ...prodding doesn’t work for me! I need no more ‘rigor,’ to exchange ideas! I must admit that I have not been paying close attention to social swings in Palestine and Israel at this time. I can only say from all my past understanding, I am not on the side of Israel! It has nothing to do with religion! I take in a lot more information than I can possibly repeat here! Our brain construct in older age, works in concepts, not so much in details! And, when ‘knocked-up-side-the-head,’ with responses...I simply shut down! But that is me...

the zionists are the most sincere in their pursuit of the whole of their god given land.

@Jacar Sincere is not the word I would use. Extreme, zealous, insanely to mention a few.
How could 'their' land be 'god' given since there is no god?

When did shooting unarmed protesters with live rounds become acceptable? Would it be any different if it was at Kent State? It's a huge deal except in the media where it is getting less coverage than the knife attack that killed one man in Paris. I am so sick of the free pass that Israel often gets when it comes to state sanctioned terrorism. I understand there is a war going on and I understand that Israel is embattled but they are also the only nuclear power in the region and if they want to claim the moral high ground then they need to stop acting like this.

Wow, talk about a charged position. It totally ignores WHY they went to that border. It totally ignores that only 2 nations in the world agreed with what Israel and the USA were "celebrating". But I guess if you only want to see one side that's pretty easy to do.

@redbai WOW talk about ignorant. I don't care what # you pick out of your hat that you say is in agreement on anything. 38 countries were at the embassy opening. I think the embassy rollout, btw, was more of Netanyahu proving that his way forward is a narrow route for Israel, including the fundamentalist speakers that were chosen.

But, the world as represented by the UN is simply wrong. The UN is led by many dictators guilty of human rights violations in their own countries. Why would any rational human being take their opinions without questioning? Why are you a follower of the UN's dictates in what is wrong and right in this world? The UN is quick to condemn Israel. The UN is slow to intervene in any other crisis including genocide: look at the rohyinga and the syrians.

If you really are seeing both sides, why would you think it's appropriate for the Palestinian Authority to call for unarmed civilians to rush the border knowing that the Israelis would protect the border with live ammunition? Why is this ok? The Palestinian Authority uses its people as pawns and I think that's what Netanyahu is guilty of too. But to me it doesn't stop there. The local Arab countries use the Israelis to keep the peace within their own borders privately and publicly call them the enemy. The Arab countries use the Palestinian crisis as a rouse/a distraction...ever notice there's not one successful democracy in the Arab world???

There's a lot more to this conflict that simply bashing Israel for killing Palestinians. Grow some balls and take a deeper look at all the many players and the dynamics. Open your eyes.

@crazycurlz You are assuming that "attending" is the same as "agreeing with" as opposed to doing what was diplomatically necessary to stay on the good side of the extremely powerful military and economic power of the US being run by a madman.

Your assumptions about how I feel about the UN is just baseless speculation. I guess you needed something to attack so you made up some positions for me and attacked them. It wasn't even mildly entertaining let alone correct.

Your assumption that I "think it's appropriate for the Palestinian Authority to call for unarmed civilians to rush the border knowing that the Israelis would protect the border with live ammunition" is more baseless speculation. I think is was kind of dumb, but I don't think that killing them with state-of-the-art weapons is a proportionate response to climbing a fence or throwing rocks. Apparently you do.

Of course there's a lot more to the conflict, I never said there wasn't. But here's something that may not have occurred to you. I can condemn Israel for crimes against humanity and still not agree with the actions of Hamas or the UN. I'm complicated that way. You may vary in your ability to cope with such complex concepts, but I've been doing it all my life.

@redbai "baseless speculation that Israeli would protect its borders with live ammunition"??? "KIND OF DUMB" to amass unarmed Palestinian civilians to rush the border knowing the Israelis would have live ammunition and use it to defend their borders???? KIND OF DUMB??? Why not call it what it is...DEADLY??? Why not acknowledge that the Palestinian Authority knew exactly what they were doing when they set up the Palestinians. How did they know? They do it over and over and over.
Israel's 'crimes against humanity' pale in comparison to crimes of the dictators in countries around the world. The UN keeps its focus on this conflict and puts the onus on Israel. WHY? It's the same reason that the heads of all the departments of our federal government happen to own stock/companies in the business they regulate (and this was true before trump). Distraction.
Israel under Netanyahu has sold itself to special interests and the same goes for the Palestinian Authority. But the players expand outward from them...Iran and the Arab countries, the west including the US. The UN. I don't mean to bash you over the head. Clearly you have a heart. I'm just sick of people not looking below the surface. Jews in Israel suffer and Palestinians suffer, both equally, because of the layers and layers of manipulation and distraction on all sides. It took me years to sort through all the bullshit and I think others should start doing it too. There is no one invested in ending this crisis except for the Israelis and the Palestinians that genuinely want peace and resolution. And, trust me, there are those on both sides.

@crazycurlz I find it self-serving how you imply that the people of Palestine are simply lemmings that do the bidding of Palestinian Authority. That they didn't KNOW that some would be shot and killed by Israeli soldiers. That somehow the PA knew, I knew, you knew, but they didn't. And if you admit that they did know, then they weren't there because the PA sent them, they were there because they are direly oppressed and that was all they had to make the point that their oppressors will even shoot and kill unarmed people protesting war crimes. And FTR, other countries committing war crimes does not mitigate the war crimes of Israel.

The idea that the people of Israel are suffering equally as the people of the Gaza Strip is ridiculous. But we will have to agree to disagree as neither of us can resolve the issue here.

@redbai the shame of it is that the Palestinian people DID know what they were doing charging the border. Somehow they've bought this truth that Iran is their best friend and self-sacrifice for PR is their best approach. The Palestinian Authority has a lot of support in the world and their solutions are this? Using their people as fodder plays into the status quo narrative and folks like you keep it going.
The Palestinians weren't direly oppressed. They are brainwashed. This isn't a war crime of Israel. This is on the Palestinian Authority. Yes, sadly, we can agree to disagree. I think it's a shame that you are for the status quo narrative. There's no way to peace for both sides unless this narrative changes.

@crazycurlz Gaza is governed by Hamas, not the Palestinian Authority.

@crazycurlz
[facebook.com]

@Gareth pulled this from the Washington post: November 2, 2017

"THE HAMAS movement handed control over border posts in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday to the Palestinian Authority, the first step in implementing a reconciliation agreement between the rival factions."

@crazycurlz Thanks - i didn't know that, but would I be right in thinking that these killings did not take place at border posts? I haven't seen footage to challenge your claim that the border was being 'charged' but I take it that the killings did not take place either on or inside the Israeli border. I disagree that the UN is run by dictators and that Israelis and Palestinians suffer equally but I hardly think that butting heads will readily change our minds on such points.

@Gareth There are a lot of dictator countries in the UN and they vote. The UN, the worlds peacekeepers are slow to react when people are in crisis, yet quick to condemn Israel. I don't say that Israelis and Palestinians suffer equally. I don't think suffer is the right term for either side. YOU are focused on the plight of the Palestinians and the effects of the crisis on their quality of life. MY focus is on the machinations of why this crisis goes on and on and on. It's fueled by deep reservoirs on both sides, bad players making bad choices. And you're right, we don't have to discuss further. But I do think your scope is more focused than mine.

There is definitely agenda with some folks and it all revolves around religion and the conditions for the second coming.

@Surfpirate Oh the conditions for the second coming.

@GipsyOfNewSpain there's enough crazy people with crazy religious beliefs that you just can't make this shit up.

@EEEE i don't use this criteria for my outrage. Not everyone genetically related is the same.

But i get your drift.

Yes symbolism means a lot and especially out there. This is official recognition by Trump that Jerusalem is the capital of the Israeli state. The rest of the world recognise Jerusalem as a shared city.

It was a nasty and vindictive move by Trump no doubt egged on by influentual Zionists in the US.

Countrywoman where have you been all my life. I do like having you show up at the shoot out! lol I will have to look closer at this thing about the Jordanians and Palestinians. Have never heard this.

Jordan is not Palestine. That is an Israeli myth and excuse. Just look at the historical maps of the Mandates. Israel is by def. racist and is only and ethnic democracy, like the Confederacy or former South Africa.

"Jordan IS "Palestine"."
What an impudent lie.

PragerU almost defines "fake news". It's not even a university although they call themselves one. If you're relying on them for information you are in a bad way.

@Gareth What exactly have they got wrong? If you tell me what is incorrect then you can start to change my mind. I don’t want to believe things that aren’t true.

@KenG I can't rehash the whole history of the area and I admit I stopped watching after the claim that Israel had twice offered a 2-state solution that the Palestinians rejected. If you look at the details of those offers, they were not made in good faith. It has always been the case that Israel has prevaricated on delivering any concessions under false pretexts and imposing caveats that guarantee rejection. I'll give a few examples from memory. One is that Israel refused to negotiate on the basis that its right to exist was not recognised. When Arafat conceded the point they then refused to negotiate on the grounds that Arafat was an dishonest actor and ex-terrorist. When Arafat was consequently replaced by Abbas they subsequently said they could not work with Abbas.....it goes on. Israel further failed to implement the Oslo accords on one pretext after another. They have only conceded points when the US has strongarmed them into it (such as the abandonment of Gaza). I have noticed that whenever there is real pressure on Israel to make substantial progress in peace talks they create an 'incident', such as the killing of sheikh Yassin, so that the Palestinians will react and in an atmosphere of escalating violence they declare that agreement has been made impossible by the other side. I don't have any agenda here - I inform myself, have a good understanding of the facts and base my opinion on that. I could go on, but long posts rapidly become boring.

@KenG You're British like me, so does this from PragerU pass your objectivity test?

@Gareth This is a matter of opinion. Praga U have suggested that Christianity is true and a good thing for morality. I disagree. An argument stands or falls on its own merit, not on who makes it. If Hitler suggested the moon was spherical, it wouldn’t mean it wasn’t.

@KenG I agree. That's why you should question anything coming out of PragerU. given that they have an explicit agenda and history of falsification. You will notice I myself have not made any appeals to authority.

@Gareth not boring at all. Thanks