Really? Maybe it's just the area you're in. Where I am, almost every gay dating service is young men seeking older men. I don't get it, but it I'm having a hard time avoiding it.

As mentioned, it may be location. I’m in an LGBT social group, and we’re mostly all older. There are a few in their 30s, a handful of us in our 40s, with the rest 50 and older. I’ve seen a number of hookups at social events, and know of 2 marriages. so it’s not impossible, though I appreciate the difficulties.

I have heard of this. I think that it may be related to location, because I’m involved with some social groups around Washington DC, and this kind of behavior rarely happens in those groups.

@miffy Oh wow! I would have never of thought that location had anything to do with it. Very interesting point. Thanks for that information.

Most of the self-identified 'trans lesbians' I know are still way back in the closet to most friends, family and workmates, and have absolutely no intention of transitioning, socially or surgically. But if one of them puts on GirlyClothes (TM) and the other doesn't, they can kid themselves that they're straight when they're doing things with each other's penises. If both put on GirlyClothes (TM) then it's still gay, but it's the sexy 'ladygay', not the nasty 'mangay.'

It's simultaneously (male) homophobic and appropriative of actual lesbianism. That second one isn't my battle to fight (I hate offence by proxy) but as someone who identifies as male who exclusively enjoys sex with people I consider male (regardless of my or their gender expression or identity) the first one certainly is.

@NicoleCadmium fortunately the straight-male-attraction-to-transgender-ladies happens so frequently that there's actually a name for it, affording ample opportunity for sexual activity. If I had a dime for the daily emails I get! I wish bi females experienced the same fetishism as often.

@cvccosplay There's a name for it? Do tell. I've always used 'trans attracted.' People generally seem to favour 'admirer', but I don't think it really fits.

@NicoleCadmium gynandromorphophile. It's a mouthful, but it literally translates to "the love of one who changes male to female."

@cvccosplay Interesting. Funny how they make it a philia rather than a sexuality, when it might actually qualify as a legitimate sexuality. Perhaps it's still being classified as some sort of disorder. Meanwhile, people are turning every possible sexual preference into a sexuality label.

Oh? My experience has been the opposite. Pre-op, bi women were very interested in me. A few lesbians propositioned me as well. I was very nervous about this.

Post op, I have honestly felt like “prey”. It’s flattering, but very intimidating.

@miffy in Virginia? I need to move south!

We've had a bit of a paradigm shift, though. It's stopped being entirely about people wanting to be the binary opposite of what was written on their birth certificate. The classic "Woman trapped in a man's body", craving the cisgender binary opposite life that was cruelly denied to them at birth, is now only part of the story.

Some of us now are happy to be transgender. We revel in being outside of the binaries. We celebrate being different. We don't mind people being attracted to our being different, as long as they don't simply fetishise us for our body parts. That second kind of trans often isn't fixated with 'passing' or 'being convincing', they're proud of what they are, and happy to blur boundaries. And if someone can love them because of that, happy days.

Meanwhile, the classic binary opposite trans people are looking for nothing less than the cis life experience that they feel they were denied at birth. They will often settle for nothing less than being treated as cisgender people of the opposite sex to their birth assigned one. Anyone who's attracted to them because they're trans is considered a fetishist.

This is generalizing a lot. I suggest against generalizing with statements like yours, because what you commented on doesn’t apply to me, nor to many people I know (some, yes).

I started this thread with a vent, and it was based on me wanting a relationship. Relationships require honesty, and this requires that I be open about being trans. That leads to the above difficulties.

I’ve started relationships that were apparently going well (eg I was surprised with a passionate kiss), and so I’ve disclosed my background, at which point the guy in question is happy to remain friends, but opted not to be in a relationship.

There is also an occasion when I hooked up (set up by my pan/poly cis girlfriend), and there the rules are different. In that case, he wasn’t expecting anything serious between us, so I didn’t feel obliged to say anything. If he had any inkling, he did not say anything about it.

I have other friends who have gone through similar things. One friend (who has now lived more than half of her life post transition) usually doesn’t tell ANY of the men in her life, even when she has been in relationships that have gone for a few years. (I couldn’t do this myself).

So no... I don’t feel what you’re saying is applicable here

@NicoleCadmium “will settle for nothing less...” seems a little judgemental.

Being accepted as a woman (which I am in most aspects of my life), is comfortable and feels right. Being seen as “trans” is not at all. Back when I passed less, I was treated poorly. Everything from simple staring, through persistent misgendering, and on to outright discrimination, being refused service at shops, etc. I was never physically assaulted, but I know people who have been (one was hospitalized, and her 6 assailants all had charges dropped), and the constant fear that this brings is as bad as any mistreatment.

There is also the internalized transphobia that I was raised with. I know exactly how trans people in my home state are viewed, and treated.

So no... I have no desire to be visibly trans. Maybe if I lived somewhere else, but I doubt it.

@miffy So basically, you're confirming what I said, just disagreeing with the lack of subtlety in my wording? I didn't intend to come across as judgemental. I wanted to portray how strongly the classic trans woman desires the authentic female life experience.

I know people covering the whole gamut of gender variance, from 'hairy panty wearer' right through to post-op. And yes, I'd say that everyone who's gone down the binary route wishes with all of their heart that they'd been born that way in the first place. As the most acceptable second to that, that they can live a life where everyone at least treats them as though they were. The fixation with passing comes from this classic version of being transgender (typically leading to becoming transsexual.) The idea that the biggest insult you can ever give to a trans woman is to notice that she's trans, comes from the same stock. After all, the best way to get people to treat you as a cisgender female is to get them to think that you are one. But there's a new kid on the block: people who buck the gender norms, not out of some sense of trendsetting, but because that's who they feel they are, and society is evolving to a point where they're no longer expected to keep it in a box.

I don't have a problem with being visibly trans. Well actually, I do, but I try not to. Yes, in an ideal world, I'd love passing privilege. I don't have it and probably never will, so I need to rock this in a way where it doesn't matter. And I don't mind if a guy wants my penis, as long as he wants the rest of me along with it. It's when the rest of me is merely a blood supply for that one body part that it becomes irritating. But even a lot of self-identified bisexual males are effectively 'straight with a penis fetish.' That isn't purely a trans attraction thing.

@Palacinky And if we don't discuss our points of view, how do we ever learn anything? I'm happy to review how I believe most binaries think on the basis of this discussion. Even though all of the ones I've discussed it with would ideally like to have been born women, and just want to live their lives as women.

To perhaps to change the focus of my original point: some trans people just want to be treated as a cis person of their correct gender, and are insulted by the idea that someone might be interested in them for their trans status or history. Others of us don't mind people being interested in our trans status, as long as they treat us like people, rather than as a collection of body parts.

We currently have a circular problem: trans-attracted men treat trans women as a fetish. But then trans women keep treating trans-attracted men as fetishists. Maybe if we stop, and drag trans-attraction in cisgender men out of the dark ages, some of them will change. Though I think we're stuck with 'straight, with a penis fetish' as a means that many use to reconcile their trans interest with their sense of heterosexuality.

@Palacinky Not disingenuous on my part at all. I've been honest and direct throughout. I would be grateful if you would refrain from suggesting otherwise in future.

You get the 'straight with a penis fetish' thing going on in bisexual males too. Nothing to do with trans people. Everything to do with clinging onto cishetero values (and sometimes even their heterosexuality) while finding and excuse to have sex with someone who has the same genitals as they do. I've chatted with a guy who had sex with men, but who identified as straight. His definitions revolved around romantic involvement. Sex with men, for him, was just sex., and so didn't count towards his sexuality as far as he was concerned.

Being found out to be trans-attracted is still considered a major scandal. Look at the celebs who've been 'caught' doing it, and the ensuing controversy and denial. While trans acceptance has come on in leaps and bounds, trans attraction acceptance in cis men is still stuck where homosexuality and bisexuality were 30 years ago. I believe this is the real problem.

I don't believe trans women automatically labelling trans attracted men as fetishists helps. We're upholding the disgust that society has for cis men who are attracted to trans women. We should be allies to the decent ones, not the first in line to condemn them.

Certainly, label the fetishists as fetishists, but a minority want a normal, healthy, emotional relationship, specifically with a trans woman. I have friends who are in relationships with this sort of man. What I'm saying is give trans attracted men a chance. Treat them as fetishists only once they prove themselves to be fetishists. To do otherwise is prejudice.

@Palacinky I see it all of the time. I got turfed out of a Facebook group for arguing with the admins. My crime? Challenging them on describing a man who wanted to join as 'a perv' purely on the basis that he wanted to join, and all men who wanted to join the group were pervs.

I was reading an article written by a trans woman once, and she came out with something I thought was rather profound: "The only difference between a preference and a fetish is other people's approval." And it's so true: like thin? That's a preference. Like fat? That's a fetish. Like cis? That's a preference. Like trans? That's a fetish. That's certainly what the common usage of fetish has become. I prefer what I believe to be the correct sense of the word, which focuses on a specific object, body part or activity that would not be considered sexually arousing by the majority of people. (This would include how you would expect a heterosexual male to feel about someone else's penis.)

I wouldn't want to date anyone who was fixated with any kind of porn. At the same time, I wouldn't object to them watching it occasionally. I think that's a bit of a red herring. Lots of men watch too much porn. Just not necessarily trans porn. Yes, trans porn (and those who watch it) objectifies trans women, but no more so than cis porn does to cis women.

There are multiple issues at play here:

1. Men who are only attracted to femininity wanting to cling on to their sense of being straight when they find themselves attracted to trans women. There are various ways to rationalise this. Some are better at it than others.
2. Men who are ashamed of being attracted to trans women, and don't want society to judge them as 'gay', especially when they consider themselves not to be (they have no attraction to masculinity, as indeed most gay men have no interest in femininity.)
3. The actual fetishists. The ones who consider the rest of your body to simply be a blood supply for the one part that they want.

The last of those three is arguably the most common, and definitely not relationship material. But once again, it's no different to the way many bisexuals operate, so certainly isn't specific to trans-attraction. The first two have potential, in my opinion. Especially if we can help them get over the stigma of being straight and trans-attracted.

@Palacinky I'm in plenty of trans feminine oriented groups on Facebook that manage to exclude male 'admirers' without resorting to calling them pervs. It was the automatic assumption that this man was a perv that really got under my skin. For all we knew, he could be one of the decent ones. The vibe I took away from it (and I could have this completely wrong) was that the admins felt sickened that a man might be attracted to them, in part because they were trans, and that any man who made a distinction between them and a cisgender female was some sort of low-life.

I agree on the true definition of 'fetish.' It's a focus and sexualisation of something that wouldn't normally be sexual. But in general usage, I think there's some truth in the "The only difference between a preference and a fetish is other people's approval" statement. Not so much in the attracted person, but in the way they're perceived by others. I have a thin friend with an overweight wife who is sick of people assuming that he's a fat fetishist, and is primarily with her for her body shape. I think that's a good example.

I don't mind doing the 'trans therapist' thing. I quite enjoy discussing it. But there's got to be a spark of self-acceptance to work with. If they're hell bent on treating it all as a dirty little secret (and perhaps even getting a thrill from the taboo element) then you're not going to get very far.

I’m totally fine with, “I like you.”

My issue is with, “I’m bi, and therefore I like you.” As in, if they weren’t also attracted to men, then they wouldn’t be attracted to me.

They’re saying in the same breath that they don’t recognize me for who I am. Which is kind of a dealbreaker in a relationship.

@Palacinky I agree that this is sad. I understand why you may have felt that way, but that was quite a lot of openness on his part.

The sorts of things I’m concerned about are opening statements along the lines of, “I like men too, so that means that’s that there are no problems liking you.” That’s not vulnerability: it’s an explicit denial of identity.

It’s not a total deal breaker. I told one of these guys what he was saying to me, and upon further consideration he apologized and we ended up dating for a bit.