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8 6

I hate the phrases

"Brexit means Brexit" and

"leave means leave"

They degrade the ability of the human mind explain things by various means. Now that we know most of the consequences of Brexit -apart from EU's responses and a final flurry of adjustments Do you think that any further vote including people's and parliamentary ones should be banned from those people who cannot explain at least some of the consequences of their vote?

Mcflewster 8 July 11
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0

@David_Cooper What I think "Brexit means Brexit" means is " I want to leave the EU for a couple of reasons but I do not want anyone to raise any points that I had not thought of and encourage other people to do the same". We have not heard Brexiteers explaining the most important reasons that they want to leave OR the reasons they are holding from us (- mostly to improve their own finances). "Brexit means Brexit" is most certainly hiding things .

Mcflewster Level 8 July 16, 2018
0

I just saw Trump on the news.....he only went and said "brexit is brexit", confirming that he too has no clue what it is. His other noteworthy quote was "I think the people like me a lot".

Salo Level 7 July 12, 2018
0

I voted to leave the EU because of 'Article 106'. (See link below.) The way the EU turned a blind eye to police brutality in Catalonia recently and the way it treated the Greek people reaffirm my views on the EU.

Mostly I was concerned that this civilised body denied its subjects an opportunity of voting to stay or leave. It took our money yet there was a distinct shortfall of democracy.

Essentially, the issue of the single market is a battle for either the workers or the bosses. It's a class struggle.

[leftfutures.org]

So you think in some way you're punishing the EU? Thats simply pyrrhic self harm.

@Flettie

The EU is punishing the working class by making them poorer whilst making the rich richer.

@Ellatynemouth ...and leaving the EU will help the poorest in the UK? We just throw ourselves on the mercy of the Tories? I'm not convinced of their philanthropic credentials. #foodbanks

@Ellatynemouth Where is your evidence?

3

Cameron has a lot to answer for as this was a completely unnecessary referendum. There was never an overwhelming cry from the electorate for it. There had been a relentless campaign in the tabloid press over the years decrying the beaurocrats of Brussels, every day they kept telling us that the unelected civil servants of the EU were making our rules and that our parliament was being overruled, we were no longer our own masters. Even our laws were being subordinated by the European court of Justice. These rags never ever pointed up the countless benefits we derived from being a member state. Brussels civil servants don't make policy or laws, they are like our own civil service they carry out the laws debated at Strasbourg in the European Parliament. The actual policy is decided by the Counsel of Ministers and every member state has an input to this and also each member state has a veto, it is a completely democratic institution, deliberately designed so to be. In fact it ismuch more democratic than our own system. Our parliament at Westminster still made all domestic laws and these are the ones that affect our everyday lives most. This referendum was to keep the mutinous Tory backbenchers happy because they thought Nigel Farage and UKIP were making inroads in their constituencies and the fear of losing their seats had them constantly agitating. Nothing has changed there, but we are left with the worst of all outcomes, half in and half out....neither fish or fowl to use a metaphor!

Marionville Level 10 July 11, 2018

I didn't answer the question of a further referendum. I actually don’t like referenda as they rarely explain in great enough detail the consequences of saying yes or no. I think in this case once the final deal is known to us Parliament should vote on it, as we are a parliamentary democracy and that is why we elect M.P.s. I agree in this instance with Dominic Grieve who has been trying to ensure that we don’t crash out with no deal. An option some of his Tory colleagues want. I don’t think we can ban anyone from voting even if they lack knowledge and logic...that would eliminate a large swathe of the electorate!

So true!

@Paul_Clamberer Give me a like then!

@Paul_Clamberer Thanks!

2

The whole Brexit issue has been a mess from the beginning. It was a rushed and badly worded referendum which should have been made advisory rather than binding, the campaigns for and against were dishonest and should have been run under much tighter rules. Eventually the whole thing will settle and I think we may well end up back in the EU or tightly attached to the edges of it, whatever happens now.

CeliaVL Level 7 July 11, 2018

My theory is that most of Westminster actually wants Brexit. It wants full legal control of the UK, without any responsibility towards the EU, its laws and its courts. It favours the wealthy, with the EU standing up for workers' rights, clamping down on tax evasion etc. MP's are typically pretty well off, financially.

However, the politicians know that leaving is going to be massively painful to endure for the people who vote for them. That it's going to trash the economy and the exchange rate, simultaneously putting up the cost of living for the average individual, and threatening their ability to earn money to pay for it. But what if they hand you a referendum result on a silver platter that makes them rather than you responsible for their suffering, because they voted for it?

It's only in this context that the marginal result of an advisory referendum could carry such weight. The one thing in politics that we're never allowed to turn back on. We have a General Election every 5 years, because sometimes people change their minds about who wants to run the country. But we can't have a second referendum. That wouldn't be democratic.

@NicoleCadmium I agree, the wealthy will remain wealthy whatever happens and the poor will get poorer. This government has been the worst for ordinary people since Thatcher - probably worse than Thatcher because of the way they have been systematically selling off the NHS. Once we get this government out - and I have faith that we will - it will take a long time and hard work to get things back under control. The one thing that gives me hope is that young people are now much more interested in what is happening than they were over the past twenty years or so.

@CeliaVL I worry greatly about the opposition at the moment too. All Corbyn needs to do is hang on to the labour leadership whilst Brexit inevitably causes the UK harm under Tory guidance, and the ensuing wave of anti-Tory sentiment will drive voters into his arms. If he truly cared about the country he'd take a far stronger position on Brexit now, but that would soften it's blow and cost him future votes; he's as selfishly career minded as anybody in high politics right now and so we will all suffer.

@Rufus_Maximus I don't agree that that is Jeremy Corbyn's position. A team of Labour politicians and advisors have been having parallel talks with the EU so that Labour will be in a good position to agree a quick deal which fulfills Labour's demands, if this government falls. Of course he cares about future votes. He wants to get a Labour government in to put an end to the carnage this government is wreaking among the less well off. The NHS, education, housing, and welfare are far more important than Brexit.

@CeliaVL I see your point, however the EU funds the NHS heavily via Horizon bids, at the last capitation we got 6.5billion just for that. Brexit feeds directly into the problems that health and welfare face in this country.

@NicoleCadmium Exactly why is a second referendum undemocratic?. Are we not allowed to change our minds when more evidence comes along?

My understanding has always been that the referendum IS advisory.

@Mcflewster The trouble with a second referendum is that if it is still close but maybe goes the other way, then people will still complain. You can't keep having votes until you get the result you want.

@CeliaVL Trouble really was that the first referendum was badly timed, explained, planned and not limited to a wider winning difference say 60 :40 which is the norm for CONSTITUTIONAL changes like this one. We need to admit our mistakes and have second educated attempt as opposed to a hurried unthinking one. The initial vote did justify the need to fully and seriously investigate the consequences of everything and we are nearly there in this respect. I would sign the voting paper to say no more votes after this one for 20years , but why would not you?

1

So what does "Brexit means Brexit" mean?

"Brexit means Brexit" means "Brexit means Brexit".

Also "Brexit means Brexit means Brexit means Brexit" means "Brexit means Brexit means Brexit means Brexit."

Need to take a deep breath for the next one.

2

Most people, including me, don't really know what brexit means, or more accurately we don't understand it's consequences. So some fall back on this empty rhetoric which essentially amounts to 'we voted for it so were going ahead with it'. The understandable desire to get one over on the system has led many to jump on board a runaway train.

Salo Level 7 July 11, 2018
3

Brexit seems to mean a nebulous and undeliverable fantasy, and leave seems to mean "foreigners leave"

I'm fresh out of Addenbrookes Hospital in Cambridge. No foreigners means: I would have left in a body bag, not a taxi.

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