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To be ill informed is not the same as being stupid. People made up their mind about Brexit for a multitude of reasons. If remainers say that “ you did not have enough information in 2016 ”, they are just saying “ Everyone did not have enough information in 2016 ”

Mcflewster 8 Sep 2
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brexit results

Moravian Level 8 Sep 3, 2019
3

Your statement is factually true, but there is ignorance through lack of information and there is wilful ignorance which is worse than stupidity, and I believe that a number of the ultra Brexiters are guilty of this. These people have always known that we will be worse off out of the EU but are prepared to ignore this and to even promote the benefits of leaving, knowing that they are peddling lies. The end justifies the means with them, and they are now fully in control of the government. They do not care what damage may be inflicted on the country because they have no other agenda but to leave the EU...that has been their aim all along, and to leave at any cost...nothing is too high a price in their eyes. Anyone who wanted to find out the benefits of EU membership and weigh up the risks in going it alone and what we were sacrificing could do so, if they wished, but the majority of people are pretty apathetic about knowing the details, preferring to believe the constant drip-feed of poison supplied by the popular right wing daily press. Those who glean all their information from the Daily Mail probably thought they were well informed, it’s not stupid to read these papers, that would be patronising of me to say, but to use it as your only information regarding the EU, and then to have it corroborated by the Brexiteer propaganda machine, made these people who voted to leave think that they were well informed and doing the correct thing. I don’t blame the ill informed voters who sincerely believe we’ll be better off, nor do I call them stupid, but I’m sure the right wing cabal now in charge of the Tories who are driving this cliff edge Brexit think that they are, because they are willingly following them lemming-like over the edge!

I agree but a piece of information I learned years ago concerned population dynamics. When a group is a small fish it often seeks a union with others to gain strength and resources. When a group becomes large it often tries to break away from the flock because the feel they can do better on their own and don't want all the rules the group has set. I see this dynamic a lot especially lately. Often it is not a conscious decision to join or stay but simply how natural dynamics often work.

@JackPedigo I do not care MUCH about fish [I was brought up a butcher]. but I do care very much about HUMANS and this is why I am a Humanists and am very interested in how Humans group but MORE interested in how they can change things as individuals . IMO science individually applied is the way to do this.

All true , but what is your ultimate solution . Mine is Revoke article 50 and start again with new constitution, voting system and MP +MEP interactions with their constituents.

@Mcflewster I agree with all of that, however have no great expectations of any of it happening.

@Marionville Sad for us all

@Mcflewster People can and often do change things. But the right person has to come along at the right time and that doesn't happen very often. More often then not the herd mentality takes over.

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What happened three years ago is history. We have an existential threat which is that the Prime Minister is acting like a dictator, manipulated and prompted by Dominic Cummings. Our focus needs to be on the present, and assessing the possibilities offered by opposing this government.

Red_Cat Level 7 Sep 2, 2019
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Only time will tell. There are pros and cons and there is too much "spin".

Petter Level 9 Sep 2, 2019
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With what has passed so far, can the UK really remain in the EU? Has too much damage been done? Was this Cameron's plan?
I feel the the UK cannot stay in the EU now, the country is too divided and Europe no longer trusts us. Indeed, the UK may be shortly a thing of the past with the Anglo-Welsh becoming effectively a puppet state of the USA and Scotland joining with Northern Ireland and possibly a city state of London becoming new members of the EU.
It's all a bloody mess and I wish it never happened.

Sofabeast Level 7 Sep 2, 2019

Surely the only sensible way forward now is to revoke article 50, start work NOW on a written revised constitution ; a new way of voting including well thought out PR system and a set of rules for formulating any fresh referendum. I.E To START all over again. If the retainers do not win in the next few days it will still be Brexit , Brexit,brexit for at least 10 years.

@Mcflewster PR voting, as practised in Spain, is utterly corrupt. Voting for a party list puts power into the hands of the party bosses, who don't even stand for election. I have lived in Spain for 32 years and know many "influential" people who control local politics yet are not elected to any public office.
The only reasonably fair sysyem is individuals standing for each seat, and if there is no clearcut winner, then each voters "second" choice candidate being allocated "half weight" votes.

@Petter The "Alternative Vote" system was rejected in a referendum some time ago. The main problem with it is, I think, that it is entirely possible for nobody's first choice to be elected in any given constituency.

@Red_Cat That problem would never arise if, as I stated, second votes only count at half value.

@Petter interesting!

@Petter Never? I, for one, say Never say never.

@Red_Cat OK. Vanishingly rarely.

@Petter Couldn't have put better myself 🙂

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The inference is: we all had the same information but not everybody was able to see through the obvious lies and enter the broader picture. That is not a criticism so much as a declaration that we all have different life experience and aptitude for discernment.

Red_Cat Level 7 Sep 2, 2019
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