Many Libertarians point to 19th-century laissez-faire America as the supreme example of how well a society can run under the principles of Libertarianism (freedom and volunteerism). However, I would like to present a more modern version of the Libertarian ideal. That ideal existed in the living rooms of every American of the 1960's: Gilligan's Island.
In review, Gilligan's Island was a tale of a fateful trip that started from a tropic port, aboard a tiny ship. The first mate was a mighty sailing lad, the skipper brave and sure, five passengers set sail one day on a three hour tour. The weather started getting rough, and the tiny ship was tossed. If not for the courage of the fearless crew, the Minnow would have been lost. (Let me repeat: The Minnow would have been lost!) Their ship set ground on the shore of this uncharted desert isle, with Gilligan; The Skipper, too; a millionaire, and his wife; a movie star; and the rest (The Professor and Mary Ann) were here on Gilligan's isle. Yes, this was the tale of castaways that were here for a long, long time, that had to make the best of things -- it was an uphill climb. But, the first mate and his Skipper, too, tried to do their very best to make the others comfortable in their tropic island nest. No phone, no lights, no motor car, not a single luxury. It was like Robinson Crusoe -- primitive as can be. Bottom line: Seven stranded castaways, here on Gilligan's isle.
Got it?
Now let's analyze this situation. Here we have people from all walks of life: some rich, some not; some talented, some not; some blessed, some not; some smart, some not. But all had the same goal: to make life on their little island as good as possible (and to get rescued).
How did they go about making life good on the island? According to current widespread political theory, what should have been done was to create a government that would have overseen all of the castaway's lives. This government would have been for the purpose of redistributing income, protecting any castaway from his own incompetence, enforcing equality, and making sure that no individual castaway performed any activity that did not meet the approval of the others.
The castaways chose not to do this. They chose libertarianism instead. Let me explain:
Even though Thurston Howell III brought along a whole suitcase full of money, nobody else ever made a claim to it. Indeed, everybody recognized that Mr. Howell and his wife Luvey had already achieved a status in life such that they were entitled to live a more luxurious life than the rest. They were even allowed to restrict membership to their country club as they wished. Nobody acted upon their own envy; there was no hatred. Just a sense of happiness for the Howell's in their prosperity, and a feeling that they deservedly could enjoy their wealth as they wished. Indeed, when an impostor tried to fraudulently take Howell Amalgamated (yes, Howell Amalgamated), as well as other capital stocks from the Howell financial dynasty, the other castaways rose up and tried to prevent the injustice. Incidentally, did you ever see the castaways even mention imposing an income tax, or a tax of any kind for that matter, on the Howells? No, for they knew it was wrong -- taxation is theft!
Can you remember even one instance of a bureaucratic, regulatory agency created on Gilligan's Island? I can't. And I can't see any instance of any castaway needing one. All of them volunteered their own skills and abilities to build huts to their own specifications and to their own needs. One hut had an extra room; some chose beds; others, hammocks. They didn't need any bureaucrat to force them to build to the government's hurricane standards, but they decided to do it voluntarily anyway, and with success. No HUD standards, no affordable housing set asides, no EPA rules, no Social Security, no licensing of businesses, no government-enforced charity. And guess what? No problem!
Was a police force ever created to invade the privacy of a hut or to prohibit voluntary transactions? Nope, and there still were no rampant incidences of drug abuse, gambling, or prostitution, even though the opportunity certainly existed. And was there ever a better argument presented which demonstrates that gang warfare does not exist without the economic sustenance provided by prohibition? Was Gilligan, in all his incompetence, ever sued for malpractice or even gross negligence? Did you ever even see a lawyer on Gilligan's Island? Ever see the need for one? And why is that? Because even with the occasional disagreement, the castaways could settle disputes among themselves with civility, integrity, and honor. There was no expectation that a castaway had a duty to his fellow castaways before he had a duty to himself. There was no sexual harassment suit filed when Gilligan "accidentally" yanked off Mary Ann's bathing suit in the lagoon. (Good heavens!) Perhaps that was because Mary Ann had no vehicle available for her to make money from a lawsuit? There was no discrimination suit filed when the girls were prevented from working on the emergency raft which might have saved the castaways from the [assumed] sinking island. And did Gilligan go looking for someone to sue when he accidentally drank the nitro-glycerin? Hell no, and nobody was the worse for it. Yes, at times the castaways had to take up arms to defend against savages, rogue Japanese militants, and the occasional armed gorilla, but no draft of any kind was ever instituted -- when a true threat to life, liberty, and property surfaced, this democratic and free island-nation rose up and volunteered to protect the island and its way of life.
Just what was the result of this South Pacific version of laissez-faire island "chaos"? In just three short seasons on CBS, seven "victims" of a shipwreck -- without even so much as a dime of federal emergency relief aid -- managed to pull themselves out of poverty and establish an ordered, prosperous, and happy society. Without any hint of governmental coercion, each individual castaway ventured out and filled his or her niche in the economy, which all went into benefiting themselves and their community: The Skipper and Gilligan took up manual labor, The Professor concentrated on scientific and technical services, Mary Ann washed clothes and baked coconut cream pies, Ginger provided entertainment (I still think she should have won the Miss Castaway pageant, but I digress...), and the Howells provided capital and financial guidance when needed. This unfettered economy -- without the supposed "wise leadership" of the Federal Reserve to reduce unemployment and control inflation -- built adequate housing, set up geothermal water supplies and natural gas networks, ran outdoor theaters, operated taxi service, created lie detectors and volcano-destroying bombs and batteries and radio transmitters from scratch (and lots of bamboo), constructed a communications system that could actually be seen by an astronaut in outer space, and still had the time to work on various island-escaping capital projects. And it seems like they got to eat lobster every single dinner, for Chrisakes! Yes, capitalism at its finest hour (well, at least, finest half-hour).
Oh, but people just can't seem to leave a good thing like this libertarian utopia alone, can they? No, they can't, and 20th-century Americans couldn't, either. And so, in an attempt to better things by creating a government that intended to take better care of the castaways than what they were doing voluntarily on their own, the castaways once decided to form a government, and elected Gilligan as President of the island. The result? Political corruption, cronyism, abuse of power, and the inevitable government pork-barrel water project. (Remember the one with the well?) Fortunately for the castaways, they realized their foolishness, and disbanded the government. But unfortunately for the viewing audience, the forces against liberty and freedom could not let this shining example of the virtues of liberty and volunteerism (libertarianism) -- contrasted with the ineptitude and folly of a providential government -- remain on the air and disrupt the prevailing indoctrination supporting the Goodness of All Things Governmental, and thus Gilligan's Island was cancelled (just like laissez-faire was cancelled).
And so, the experts say, we cannot have Gilligan's Island again. They say things are too complicated nowadays. They say things weren't as good as the re-runs indicate, and cite the colorization of the first season's episodes as an example. They say we need to grow with the changing times -- to accept things as they are now. I say, "Forget 'Cops' and 'The West Wing' -- I want my 'Gilligan's Island' back!" Sure, the Howells and The Professor and the Skipper and his Little Buddy are long since dead, but their spirit lives on. We can all go back to Gilligan's Island again, this time not by changing a channel on the TV, but by electing Libertarians to office.
...
Actually, folks, it's not comedy -- the vast majority of your actions and your interactions with your neighbors are not and need not be supervised by government. Almost all the rest need not be, also. Just as the society of Gilligan's Island was natural and believable, so can freedom and liberty be with ours. It works, and it will make us happier. Let it be.
Your Gilligan's Island analogy is similar to Ayn Rand's Galts Gultch in Atlas Shrugged. A small community of like minded people who believe in individual rights, including property rights, can survive without a government. But, as Thomas Jefferson wrote in the "Declaration of Independence", our government was established to protect individual rights, which requires police, military, and a judicial system. It started as a good system, but has evolved into the mess it is today.
Agreed. There was never an episode where one of the castaways purposely harmed another, so we'll never know what kind of police force would have been established. Ditto military.
This was kind of addressed with the lawyer point above, but they could always agree to arbitration as both sides would want to avoid either being angry enough to continue a cycle of violence.
I stopped reading when the OP mentioned a 1960's sit-com. I don't base my belief in god or religion on fantasy; I'm sure not going to do it with society or government.
And this is coming from a person who agrees with more of the Libertarian platform than any other (Dem, Rep, Green, etc).
Its alright if your 7 people. But a population of 335 million is another story. Libertarianism is predicated upon humans self regulating and working for what is best for them. This is predicated on the concept that people realize that what is best for them is best for everyone. Therefore, by acting on their best interests, everybody would benefit.
Unfortunately, humans fail in this capacity, terribly in fact. If the government had not stepped in, Jim Crow would still be alive and well in the south. If the government had not clean air and water standards, the Chattanooga River will still be burning, many more people would eat their windshield because no one made manufacturers put seat belts in cars.
The list goes on. All you have to do is look around at Republicans and corporate leaders to see that what you espouse does not work. Gilligan's Island scenario , while quaint is far too simplistic to describe a modern society. Exceptions do not make the rule and your example is a quagmire of unrealistic exceptions.
335 million are not capable of ruling themselves in an unselfish manner. As pointed out in :The Lord of the Flies", human base instincts are geared to hierarchies and selfishness. With all due respect for your entertaining post, I wholeheartedly disagree.
No, Libertarianism is predicated on people having value for their own lives as well as those around them, and that they are better than government in determining what is best for them. It is government that tries to determine and then mandate what is supposed to be best for everyone. Government is anathema to individuality,
Your list goes on, that's for sure. But it's a list of government failures. Jim Crow and slavery were enforced by government. This defines government: A group of people want to take over government and thus use its ultimate force to better themselves at the expense of everyone else. Whites took over the government to enslave and disenfranchise blacks. It worked for awhile. These days, it's liberals and conservatives that want to take over government and enforce their values so that, not only can they live in a world that has their government letting them live their lives the way they want, but using government force so that everyone else must live that life, too.
It is your world that is simplistic -- you believe that an entity called government can act like a god, providing for everyone and everything. You believe government employees are wiser, fairer, and harder working than individuals or the private sector, and can somehow maximize the Common Good. They can't, because they are not gods, and not even saints. They are just people, trapped in the halls of a passionless bureaucracy. There is no evidence or reason to believe that it can. It is faith, and it is false.
Keep reading. But I suggest you start reading books that don't paint humanity in such a dark tone. Or maybe you should? I mean, have you ever wondered how, people being so crappy as you believe, how they could all-of-a-sudden be really good when they operate within the government? Seems to be a contradiction to me. But to you? Maybe not, or it just doesn't matter, for since you base your life on faith in government, you can afford a lot of contradiction without being perturbed at all.
You fail to mention that the castaways had no economy, so everything was bartered. For better or worse, we have an economy, so you're comparing apples and oranges, unless you're advocating for tanking the economy on the whole, just so we could institute such a catastrophic change. This is pretty much the reason Libertarians will never rise above fringe status. Your inclusion of Gilligan's Island highlights this fundamental problem.
They had an economy; they just didn't use a currency (despite Mr. Howell's lockbox). I'm actually trying to prevent an economic catastrophe brought on by Democrats and Republicans effectively building a totalitarian government, and breaking the bank by trying to be a providential god.
Keep your head in the sand, though, and have a good time before the financial apocalypse. Me? I've got solar panels on my house that will power my TV and DVD player, so I can watch reruns of Gilligan's Island over and over again, lamenting what might have been.
Oh, Bartleby; oh, humanity!
@GlyndonD You advocate for a society based on a sitcom over 50 years ago and I'm the one with my head in the sand? Jim Jones tried out your plan. That didn't go so well, did it? And that was in the real world. Oh, but he was religious, so let's steer clear of that and use Mosquito Coast as a model. Oh yeah, that didn't work out so well either.
OK, so we're in a catastrophe brought on by Democrats & Republicans? I can accept that. So the alternative, then, is the Libertarian approach? Gary Johnson touted his success as New Mexico's governor and how he was able to successfully slash taxes. In so doing, he added over $3B to the state's debt (https://reason.com/blog/2016/05/25/gary-johnsons-new-mexico-fiscal-record-d). As a presidential candidate, he complained that he wasn't being given a fair shake and couldn't get enough air time to get his message out, but once he was given a mic and camera, he again demonstrated his ignorance of the world around him. Syria was ALL OVER the news and had been brewing for some time, yet he knew nothing about it. When asked to name a world leader he respected he couldn't name one, so the question was dumbed down and he was asked to name a world leader and he STILL couldn't name one. Supposedly, he was the best the Libertarian Party had to offer, yet he was nowhere near ready for prime time. Can you point to an otherwise successful Libertarian who's gone from the ballot to playing an active role in making his community better? I see them out there and attended a rally, but can't point to a single success story.
Good for you, your solar panels, and your continued ability to watch dvds when the grid fails. I'm sure that will prove an enormous amount of solace when reflecting on your powerful thoughts of transforming the country into Gilligan's Island.
@chalupacabre, you have no sense of humor, right?
JIm Jones...Really? Is that the best you can come up with? One problem I see with many atheists is that they succumb to their urges for a Supreme Being, and thus try to get their government into that mold. Thus, providential governments. That is, totalitarian governments, just like the governments we are constructing now. After that is completed, you'll have more Jim Jones-style incidents, just like we saw with totalitarian governments of the past. (Which of these were your favorites?)
For those religious zealots, don't they try to become the authoritarian government, and be god-like (totalitarian)? Wasn't that Jim Jones? Do you think that that society was libertarian? Was any [governmental] force used against the flock to ensure proper behavior? Did they get wages, or were they working for the state (church)? Were they allowed to leave? I don't think so, and I just wish Jimmy would have believed in the 2nd Amendment for his people, so that when the time came for his police force to enforce the wise government policy of the Goodness of Laced Kool-Aid (after slaughtering a Congressional task force with his army), there would have been an armed militia to resist what we libertarians refer to as "Government Tyranny". Don't you agree?
Get it? I think you don't. But if Jim Jones is your idea of Libertarianism, I think you don't know anything about Libertarianism. Sorry about that. And the reason for this is what you cite above: the media is composed of people just like you, who can only vote for (or report on) Republicans or Democrats, which are composed of conservatives, liberals, and totalitarian moderates/centrists. They want to keep the game amongst themselves. They have a duopoly, and that's not going to change, if they can help it, that is. And so, when a LIbertarian comes along who looks like he might just be a threat to the duopoly, the media will come in and destroy him. That's what happened to Gary Johnson. In two interviews, the media cherry-picked a couple of gaffes, and it was repeated on all the national news programs and every late-night talk show within two days. Just those gaffes and nothing else. He was finished off. After the media washed their hands of him, they went back to its coverage of the only two kinds of candidates and parties that they cared to cover -- Democrats and Republicans. Ron Paul knew all this, so when he wanted to actually win an election, he ran as a Republican, and won. When he ran for President again, he espoused very pure libertarian principles, but ran as a Republican, and actually obtained some media coverage. Rand Paul, although not nearly as libertarian as his dad, knows enough that if he actually wants to win an election, he has to stay in the Republican Party. And your buddy, Barry Sanders, is the same -- when he ran for President, he jumped into the Democratic Party, so that he could actually get some media coverage, and campaign donations. Since then, he has reverted back to Independent. Back to Gary Johnson. Was he not prepared enough to be Governor of New Mexico? Why was he such a scatterbrain running for President and yet win that state's election earlier? Did he get hit by a truck? Oh, that's right -- Syria. All candidates should be well-versed in the latest city in the Middle East being attacked in one of their religious civil wars. And so, since everybody knows our military should be imperialist, protect our interest in foreign commodities like oil, protect our foreign capital investments, and take sides on which religions we actually want to win in their sectarian wars, Gary Johnson was supposed to state what we were supposed to do about Aleppo. When he demonstrated he was not concerned about Aleppo, because he believed that our Defense Dept. should be about defense, and not all those other reasons why our budget is over $700 billion, with intelligence and police departments all ramped up because people in those sectarian countries hate us because we step on and take sides. So, the Media catches Gary Johnson being ignorant in an issue that he has no passion for, humiliates him over and over again, and does not report how LIbertarians want to run our military, which is to not get involved in overseas civil wars, or to defend other countries via our taxpayers and not theirs, or to protect corporate investments overseas. That viewpoint will not be offered to the public, and instead, we only hear about how the two parties would handle our imperialism. That sound good to you? Great system? Proud of your Media? Well then, enjoy your two political parties!
This is the kind of political system you want? Closed to politicians and issues outside of the two political parties? If so, you must really admire China, with its one party. And you'll really love it when the US converges on a bipartisan totalitarian government, when they'll dispense with all the two-party nonsense and just start electing totalitarians from a real Totalitarian Party. It might not be like my Gilligan's Island, but more like your Fantasy Island. Enjoy!
This post and the comments are the best example of libertarians I've seen! Everyone nay-saying everyone else, calling everyone commies and marxists. What a post!
Actually, it's the best example of libertarians and totalitarians. For the record, I don't think anyone was called a communist, but I was called an idiot.
Never liked the show. Did not read your thesis. By the way... look what happened to the 19th century america in the 21st century! I don't watch tv. My Final Answer.
Maybe you should watch TV -- it seems you have nothing better to do than to comment on topics and posts you don't know anything about and don't even read!
@GlyndonD To say I don't watch tv has nothing to say I did not watched the show 40 odd years ago... IDIOT!!! And to call you IDIOT means I know what I am talking about... IDIOT!!!
@GipsyOfNewSpain, fair enough, but you also said that you did not read my "thesis". What kind of person calls someone an idiot when he doesn't even know what the person said? My answer: an idiot.
@GlyndonD I don't waste time reading Idiots... IDIOT!
@GipsyOfNewSpain, trust me: anyone who doesn't waste time reading something that he hasn't read because he has surmised that the writer is an idiot (even though he doesn't know what that person has said), is either an idiot or deranged. Your choice.
I ought to block you for posting the whole damn song. The whole point of the show was tipping "society" upside down. Where "wealth" was worthless and labor and skills had the real value.
No, please don't block me!!!
The castaways demonstrated their value of wealth all the time. And why not -- wealth is good. But they dealt with it with integrity, and didn't let their envy consume them such that they would form a Mafia-style governmental force and take it away from those who had it.
@GlyndonD Well, okay since you said please.
The thing is the Howells had no value, they were an irritant and a drain on resources, but the rest of the castaways took care of them anyway. Same with Ginger, her beauty which she traded on in Hollywood, had no value, but they took care of her anyway.
@sewchick57, so, people should not be allowed to retire? People should not be able to treat differently those they deem frail and useless? No voluntary favoritism? We need a government to enforce laws preventing this?
I don't agree.
Cash money having no value on a desert island, of course there was no income tax. The economy became one of labor and goods in kind. Yours is a false analogy of the most extreme sort.
Furthermore, many Left libertarians would suggest that the Howells should distribute their wealth back to the people who helped them get that way, e.g. the employees of Howell Amalgamated. But you're clearly a Right libertarian who believes the rich get rich purely by their own virtue.
19th Century America was a time of great robber barons. I don't feel that was an exemplar of how to run an economy for anyone except those in the 1/2% at the very top. But I'm sure the Current Occupant and his cronies would love to return to those policies of governmental non-oversight. (Must be why they're doing their best to do just that through dismantling all oversight of the private sector.)
Never really heard of a Left Libertarian or Right Libertarian. Are you referring to libertarians that are members of the Democratic and Republican parties?
Governments can tax bartering, and then dole it out to those they deem worthy.
So-called "Democratic Socialists" are the ones who believe Profit (wealth) should be distributed back to the people who made it. That's because they believe that government should run the factories and be non-profit. Yeah, that works really well. Just realize the value of your own life is not worth anything more to you than anyone else's. Realize that your life is not special, and give of yourself to everyone else who also realize their lives are not special, either. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and the exact value that governments should have toward any individual life. For more details, see Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, and Chairman Mao. Beautiful societies, those.
And let's just focus on how much money rich people make, rather than the incredible rise in the standard of living the general population received, as a result of laissez faire economics. Yeah, "Pay no attention to that LIbertarian behind the curtain..."
@GlyndonD Left libertarians believe that, in a free market, people would voluntarily choose to cooperate more often than compete. Right libertarians believe that people would choose to compete more often than cooperate.
Don't kid yourself, please, that the 19th century was any golden age. I presume, since you speak of laissez-faire economics, that you're speaking of the last third of the century, or the Gilded Age. While it is true that real income increased on average 60% during this time, there was also abject poverty, especially among the immigrants who came seeking work, and the concentration of wealth in the upper class was increasingly apparent. (Sound familiar?) This was the age when Herbert Spencer misappropriated Darwin's theory and proposed the idea of "Social Darwinism", claiming that the poor were actually a burden on the rest of society, and that giving them support actually weakened them... if they couldn't survive on their own, then they deserve to fail and die. (Again, sound familiar?)
"The general population" is a misleading phrase, as is the "average" income. The average income between myself and, say, Donald Trump, is somewhere up in the low billions when you include tax options, probably. The 19th Century was no more a Gilded Age for all Americans than any other.
Wow, people flee farms and other countries to come to the factories where they can get less shitty lives and the people who made those factories possible are well rewarded for their productivity. Such an evil time of too few people sacrificing their minds in the name of loving others while hating themselves. Clearly what should have happened is anyone who made a business grow to employ more people should have been punished. People don't need to earn their living when others can earn it for them. Life is so satisfying when you're a leech; that's why unemployed thirty-year-old virgins living in their parents' basements are revered as the pinnacle of happiness.
@Jnutter819 See, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that an industrialist who employs 200,000 people at minimum wage is therefore justified in making 200,000 times that minimum wage himself, because he (or possibly she, although the vast majority are "hes" ) made those jobs possible? And workers shouldn't expect anything more than the table scraps?
To take a present day example, if a family starts a nation-wide big-box retail chain, does everything in their power to undercut the competition, keep their own employees wages as low as possible, prevent the formation of a union by any means possible, pays no benefits, encourages its employees to get government benefits to make up for the sub-poverty pay (thus forcing even people who don't shop there to subsidize their business via taxes), and meanwhile they themselves live in a series of multi-million dollar mansions- that's all equitable, because they made those minimum wage jobs possible, and those workers should be pathetically grateful for the little they have?
I turn it the other way around. The person on top wouldn't be anywhere without all the people at the bottom of the pyramid. And those people on top will be first against the wall when the revolution comes unless something changes soon. (Which is probably why the Walton family, of Wal-Mart fame, had themselves an apocalypse-proof bunker built, complete with armed guards.)(True story.)
It's a fact that, adjusted for inflation, middle-class wages haven't gone up in 30 years, while the top 1 percent have given themselves a 300% raise since 1985. That kind of income inequality hasn't been seen since the Gilded Age. The comparison is apt. We are living in a new age of robber barons. There's even one sitting in the Oval Office. (Or he could be golfing today, I'm not keeping track.)
@Paul4747 First off, you know if any company employs 200,000 people, there will have to be managers, accountants, etc. who will need to be paid significantly more than minimum wage. Which brings me to my answer: if the employees agree to such low wages, yes that's fine. That said, if there's no government to enforce patents, regulations etc. someone will compete as soon as that company starts charging more/paying less than they reasonably could.
The person who starts a business only needs employees to expand it, but can run it themselves. Those who can't farm or start a business need them. Especially once mechanization increases.
Government is the reason wages suck. Taxes, business bailouts, anti-competition regulations, they all hurt the little guy.
Of the 7 people pictured, only 4 of them did any real work - Ginger and the Howell's were just a drain on the system and sponged off the other 4 who had to shoulder the workload for all 7 in a survival situation. If this is Libertarianism then it is Lefty Libertarianism where the weakest are still supported by the strongest and most industrious. The Howell's provide no valuable contribution to the group because they have no skills unless you count being obnoxious and freeloading as skills. Ginger might have considered turning tricks for a living but since this was family friendly viewing she just alluded to the possibility but was never shown following through on the promise once she got what she wanted. The other 4 were constantly busting their asses to keep their little community above water, the Skipper and Gilligan shouldered most of that load between them in spite of the fact they were no longer receiving any renumeration, had lost their property in the wreck and had no further obligation to the passengers. Caveat Emptor if you are too cheap to pay for a ticket on a bigger boat with better safety protocols, that's laissez-faire economics for you.
So, what would have been a better solution for the Howell's and Ginger's lack of utility? Proclaim a tribal elder, who can direct the others to whip the Howell's and Ginger into providing for the Common Good? Would Ginger (and possibly Mary Ann, for those who prefer...) have been made a "Comfort Woman" for the benefit of Gilligan and the Skipper?
No, the point is that everything was voluntary, just like charity is voluntary within Libertaria. It's not forced by the iron fist of government.
@GlyndonD That's the whole damned problem with modern libertarians, they have no charity. You cannot exist as an island and you cannot expand into new frontiers that are no longer there. The Thurstons could either get off their lazy asses and pull their weight or wind up in the cooking pot.
@Surfpirate, libertarians have lots of charity. For example, what about all the effort I expend to get you and others to adopt a good form of government, and to prevent evil by our current form of government? And as for charity, a big reason that people don't do it as much as they used to is that they see government as taking over charity, and tax their money away so much that there is not much left to give. I mean, with a federal budget of $4.4 trillion every year, isn't the government providing the "safety net"? Why or why not?
@GlyndonD Your Creed is Greed and we already have more than enough of that.
@Surfpirate, your creed is blind Faith in government, and we have more than enough of that.
@Surfpirate What's wing with greed? Or more accurately, ambition? People say money is the root of all evil, but don't seem to realize the full axiom is "the love of money is the root of all evil" (and from what I see, the "unearned" before money is implied). Yet self-interest is obviously not a problem; consider airline emergency procedures: "Put your own oxygen mask on before helping anyone else, even your children." Is it greedy to take care of yourself so you have the chance to take care of others?
Trying to use Gilligan's Island as an analogy for how to run a country with millions of people in it is like trying to use Horton Hears A Who as an analogy for how to build a skyscraper.
Trying to use Horton Hears a Who as an analogy for Gilligan's Island is foolish.
You want convince people that Libertarianism is a realistic political system by drawing parallels Gilligan's Island? Well done. I'm looking forward your analysis of capitalist consumer culture using episodes of Spongebob Squarepants.
If you want a serious discussion, maybe stop living a fantasy world.
Or maybe write some things tongue-in-cheek, and hope people aren't dumb enough to take every word literally? Whoops, looks like I did the same thing as those that wrote up their religious books...
Now you say it was just a joke? What about the following part?
"Actually, folks, it's not comedy -- the vast majority of your actions and your interactions with your neighbors are not and need not be supervised by government. Almost all the rest need not be, also. Just as the society of Gilligan's Island was natural and believable, so can freedom and liberty be with ours. It works, and it will make us happier. Let it be."
You say you did NOT want to get a message across?
Btw, with "a fantasy world" I meant Libertarianism not Gilligan's Island. I'm not sure if that was clear in my comment.
@Dietl, not a joke, but humor can be effective. And the end paragraph followed "...", which means it is separate from what was written above it. Actually, it was an explanation of the ideas I was trying to get across (in case anyone doesn't recognize satire).
Yes, I fantasize about a libertarian world. Too bad it's only fantasy.
The problem with this analogy is scale. Humans are tribal by evolutionary nature. Young nuclear families are usually dictatorships. A community like Gillian’s Island might work best as libertarian, but I don’t know much about the show. An entire nation of millions of people require a different kind of organization. As the nuclear family ages, each person’s voice becomes more equally valued, thus becoming a democracy. Multiple groups of these mature families require representatives or a republic to maintain equal representation in such a large population; most of which you will never meet. And it is this fact that libertarians overlook.
It brings us back to the tribe. We are tribal by nature and care more about our immediate group than the other groups, even those that indirectly affect us. We need social protections in place to protect ourselves from our very natures.
So when you think government is not working, the solution is not getting rid of it, because it was built from the ground up; it addresses the needs of the group that libertarianism can’t. We fix it by making it more accountable to the people it serves; the entire group. Not groups within the groups. Like science, it does its best to remove faulty human bias and error.
No, Libertarians are not overlooking anything you mention above. We must have a democracy, but that doesn't mean that democracy will form a government that has good values, or does good things. A representative government does not represent all, unless all think alike. It sort of represents a majority (50% + 1), except when there is no real majority (say a mish-mash of liberals, conservative, libertarians, totalitarians, and I-don't-really-care's), but even that doesn't happen because of the varied interests and the back-and-forth swings between parties and ideologies.
Contrary to what I write about Gilligan's Island, LIbertarians believe in police, courts, military, and jails, to counter the unwanted force used by others on others. But we believe that government should not go much past that. Attempting to have your government act like your daddy (conservatives), mommy (liberals), or worst -- a god (totalitarians) -- is a very bad form of government, we believe. We want people to be convinced that a libertarian form of government will be best for us, and hope people vote that in.
Interesting way to look at it, but quite wrong.
Gilligan's Island was not a Libertarian society, but a pure Marxist Communist one. They shared the island's resources equally and supported each other "From Each According to their Ability, To Each According to their Need." They had no need to confiscate and redistribute the Howell's wealth, as it had no value on the island anyway, at least to anyone other than Mr. Howell.
Exactly and nobody wanted to join the Howell's Country Club because nobody wanted to hang out with the obnoxious Howell's who were barely tolerated and the largest single drain on island resources.
Marxists believe that all government will wither away because the Good is to put others' well-being ahead of your own, and once humanity gets this, there will not be any need for government because everybody is going to be working their butt off filling up the common treasury, and taking a little bit for themselves (because their own life just doesn't justify anything more). This is not only immoral, but laughable (more so than Gilligan's Island).
No, everyone on the island had their own goals and self interest in mind, Greed would surface once in a while, as it always will.The point is, government as Mommy/Daddy/Manager/God is a bad ideal.
And the Howell's money had the exact value on the island as before they left on their fateful trip. Remember, they all wanted to get rescued, and knew what value all that money had after they got back to Hawaii. Lots of steak for The Skipper, for example. Getting a whole new Minnow. Remember when Gilligan inherited the oil well, and all the dreams he had for the money? And all the dreams that others had for that money?
@Surfpirate, but the point was, the Howells were able to exclude, even the other castaways who definitely wanted to be a member. Thing is, after Mr. Howell expropriated Gilligan's oil well and threw him out of his club, he had a dream, and realized he didn't want to be this kind of person, and woke up and threw open membership to all.
@GlyndonD So Howell was a greedy, thieving son of a bitch (what a surprise that must have been to everybody on the island, even Lovey) but he had a dream where he was punished for his greed and so he was forced to do the right thing by Gilligan. Yes, isn't that instructive.
@Surfpirate, no, he realized that there was more to life than money, and his dream forced him to empathize with those that didn't have any.
Although I believe the instinct for charity is in our genes, one has to learn that it can provide happiness for oneself above and beyond not performing the charity. This is why our belief system should incorporate the value of a human life, and you can't do that unless you have ultimate value in your own. Governments are notorious for not putting value in an individual life, and to try to shame the individual for valuing his life over the "common good". That leads to mass murder by governments. Check it out.
Mr. Howell, even at his age, was learning that his happiness can be increased by having empathy for others, and to give charity. You can't learn this sort of thing if your government takes over and attempts to do this on its own. It just gives more excuse for someone to turn his back, muttering about all the taxes he has to pay and why hasn't government helped. Breakdown of civility results. And that's exactly what you're seeing today.
Libertarians are a nightmare. I find it vile. It has nothing to do with personal freedom. That’s the lie, the link they try to make between laissez-faire economics and social freedom and justice. They do NOT go hand in hand, in fact laissez-faire economics is all about profit and property ownership over social justice and human life.
Your words are very silly. More silly than Gilligan's Island. Profit and property ownership are of the highest morality, if performed honestly and voluntarily. You seem to infer that you cannot personally do this. That's why we have the police, court system, and penitentiaries -- for those that use unwanted force on others to take their life, liberty, or property from others for their own personal gain. Especially when they and their friends take over the government and use its ultimate force to acquire their lifestyle.
Shame on you.
@GlyndonD hmmm, only a Yank could say that profit and property ownership were of the highest morality. That’s because Americans, especially white ones, cannot get it into their dense skulls that profit and property ownership is how they murdered and land grabbed from the First Nations people. Personal profit and assumption of ownership is the essence of all evil, if you ask me. White Americans and British only a few generations back thought they owned black human beings as property ?.
We don’t own diddly squat. You’ll find that out at death. Ownership means nothing. We leave it all behind. What we do own is our body and free will. That is about it.
What America needs to do is pay reparations to First Nations and black communities, then it needs to put tax in a collective pot and use it for the greater good of the people. Not on “Space Force” or invading countries that have nothing to do with the USA.
Seriously stop reading Ayn Rand and take a breath.
@Livia, your racism becomes you.
Why was it that the first to enter a continent "owns" it? Rule of conquest (when there is nobody there to conquer)? No, society establishes property rights so that property can be improved, and therefore, everybody benefits (even those that are excluded).. It won't be improved if everyone knows that someone can push you off your land right after you put work into it to make it takeable. For the most part, Indians were hunter-gatherers. They were not improving the land, but only exploiting it. How can they have property rights if they themselves had not established it for themselves? Makes no sense.
I'm not asking you. Your mind is so polluted that there is no expectation of value in your answers for asking you a question.
You're looking forward to death? Not me, and I'll enjoy the product of my work in the meantime. That is, unless people like you take over the government so as to use its ultimate force to take what I've produced and distribute it to yourselves. You'll do that because you have proclaimed property and ownership to be evil (at least, property and things that I own).
Reparations? How would that work, exactly? Take a DNA test to determine what fraction of blood is African? The Nazis said 1/32 of blood had to be Jewish in order to exterminate. Are you proposing something like that? Should Chinese people pay a lesser tax? Should MIchael Jordan get his fair share? Means testing? What about Japanese Americans? My mom suffered because she came from Russia after the war. There were other Caucasians that have suffered, notably Irish and Germans (during WWI).
And what about people that have suffered misfortune, but not because of their race? My dad was 10th of 10 kids in Dust Bowl Oklahoma during the Depression. He had to caddie at the golf course when he was 10 years old. Stood too close to a golfer, and had his head bashed in, taking out his eye. Not much white privilege in that. Should he get some of those reparations, or is it only race that counts toward that? Why is that? Of all the variables in life that determines one's success, why is it that you only accept race?
I think it's because you are a racist. I can see no other explanation.
If you'll start reading Ayn Rand, you'll realize she didn't approve of Space Forces or invading other countries to nation-build. I suggest you start with "The Fountainhead". It may not be Gilligan's Island, but it's not bad.
Important to differentiate between classic libertarians and USA Libertarian Party libertarians.
Posted by SpikeTalonI kneel before no one. No gods, no masters, no control freaks. Screw the tyrants from both political extremes, and their agendas.
Posted by SpikeTalonNeither one of the extremes, and yet the best of both worlds...
Posted by SpikeTalonSubstitute the word liberals for progressives, and that would describe me as well. As for the conservative part, the socially/theocratic (aka, bible thumpers, mostly) ones in particular.
Posted by SpikeTalonIndividuality is a dirty word to the authoritarians (both left and right) in the world.
Posted by HLMenckenFanStatist bingo
Posted by HLMenckenFanA quote from famous American libertarian journalist H. L. Mencken on government.
Posted by HLMenckenFanDo any of you own this flag? I do.
Posted by BigMac10Just found this site and am delighted!! I gave up on the Republicans after Nixon and have never looked back.
Posted by jeshueyIt's all a matter of perspective!
Posted by SpikeTalonOne of my favorite Libertarians.
Posted by CommunityTomSaw this craziness as I was scrolling through my Facebook News Feed.
Posted by MagnetarRocksI don't know about you, but I've been doing Libertarian victory laps over the last few weeks.
Posted by LEPeffTonight might be a nice time to listen to 2112. I'll miss you Neil!
Posted by RoboGrahamSwanson is wise.
Posted by OldMetalHeadThis is heartwarming
Posted by LEPeffPeople will claim this is a hoax!