This is a bit of a rant but also I would like to know what people's thoughts are on this. I had talked privately with some friends here but opening this up to the community. I warn you now, it's a long one.
After my visit to see my parents and family last week, I decided I would be in contact with my father more. He had an eye surgery that didn't go well a few years ago. His eyesight is very poor so that he is practically blind. At almost 88 years old, it is tough for him to do even the basic things. To make a long story short, my mother and older brother who live with him are selfish people who pretty much neglect him. He doesn't have anyone to talk to because they don't want to listen to him and don't bother to engage him in conversation. While I was there, my father and I talked a lot. We had always talked a lot in the past when I was still living at home. The person from "home" calling me now and again now is usually my mother and I don't get to talk to my father often.
For Father's Day, I wanted my father to be happy and feel special. So I ordered a hefty fruit basket for him and planned to call him and talk to him as well. I called last night to make sure he got the fruit basket and to wish him Happy Father's Day. For some reason, the conversation turned into a debate about god. In his depression following the failed surgery, my father had renewed his faith in his god. Don't ask me how a god who let him be nearly blind should be counted upon for support. Really, I even catered to this because it made him happy. He wanted audiobooks of the Old Testament on cassettes!!! I managed to track that down plus a new cassette player that plays CDs and mp3s.
I did not expect this arguing we had for almost 2 hours last night when I just wanted to know how his fruit basket was. He says that he believes in god because he has a feeling in his heart that there must be a higher power. He has no evidence or proof of it but he believes because of this feeling. He also attacked rational thinking. He thinks that people are into this rational thinking thing these days they forget to trust in god and follow his words. I told him I really don't care what he believes but if it harms others then I will care (I use the example of Christians voting against same-sex marriage). Then my father attacked human rights. We care more about human rights and forget what god says is right.
By this time I was just ready to call it quits. Then he adds that he doesn't try to push his beliefs on other people like I try to push my vegetarian lifestyle on other people. Huh? I never ever ever have done that. I'm also not vegetarian but vegan. I know he's not listening to me because I had repeated numerous times that I am not vegetarian and he keeps calling me vegetarian. If people ask me about my vegan lifestyle, I tell them why and give them information. I had never prevented other people from eating or using whatever they want. Just my saying that I am vegan and that I turn down offers of certain foods apparently to him represents my pushing my belief down other people's throats. The most I do is provide information based on research and experience and share plant-based healthy recipes.
Our phone call became a shouting match. Now, I'm afraid to call him again to have a conversation. I don't want it to turn to this again. Yet even last night I thought at least I gave him someone to talk to. And I want to be that for him in the future. I can set limits on what we can talk about but it seems he doesn't listen to me well. He isn't a dumb uneducated person. My father is a retired medical specialist and surgeon. He is also of sound mind at his age. But he has put on this brick wall that he seems to enjoy watching me bounce off of all the time. What would you do in this situation?
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25 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.I told my Dad that I cut people out of my life who try to force religion on me. I told him I love him dearly and didn't want that to happen. He apologized for arguing with me and been best friends ever since. No idea if that would work for you, but I hope it would. Sorry you had to go through that. Sending you strength ?
JazznBlues
Level 8
June 18, 2018
3
stop bouncing off the wall. if I may say that to you. your father looks at you like a little girl...he is the authority figure and will always be bigger, smarter and your father. he may be intelligent but he is not kind and kind he should be. i wish you wouldn’t feel so bad about it. Parents sometimes need to be in control of everything and especially their children. He won’t change. you don’t need his approval. ...and don’t give him a pass because of his eye problems...they are not your fault. just be yourself and let him be himself. you don’t need to change. you have a right to be here and to be yourself....whether he approves of you or not Good luck with all of this.
IAmLove
Level 7
June 18, 2018
3
Thanks. I always want to help but always end up the bad guy somehow. Everything I say gets twisted and thrown back at me. My family has the creative ability to turn something beautiful into something horrific. It’s a real talent. Even after all this, I’m fighting for my father to get better care. I have my younger brother and sister in law and one friend for support.
@graceylou Families can be toxic so be careful. You can help your father get better care without their approval....but I know you have to be in contact with them to do that. So do what you can...no one can do more than that. You do not need to be in contact with family members who make life horrific. Stand tall and let them know who you have grown up to be. You are better than those who put you down. They put you down to build themselves up. Remember that. I am sending you good energy!!
Well said. I also have problems relating to my father, I limit my time with him and let myself have time off when I need a break. It makes me more patient when we are together. All the best @graceylou.
Check in on him from time to time. Let him determine the course of the conversation, but when he heads for the combative topics, steer away or call the chat short. If you declare some topics off limits, it'll probably make him defensive, so don't bother. At least he's still talking to you. Last year, my dad said he never wanted to speak to me again. He couldn't tell me though, so he told my wife in an email. I called him up to ask what it was that set him off and, after being cussed out and hung up on several times, he finally said I made a comment that didn't set well with him, but he couldn't remember what it was. Things might be tense between you & your dad, but they gotta be better than that!
chalupacabre
Level 8
June 18, 2018
3
My father wouldn't get offended easily. I'm the one who tends to get offended if certain things are said. I had cut off relations with my family several times before. When reconnecting I try to avoid touchy subjects. But they seem to always creep in when the guards are down.
@graceylou I allowed my mother and my older brother (both narcissists) to make my life hell for most of my life. I had no self esteem. I was estranged from them for five years. During that time I quit smoking, quit drinking and went back to school to get my BA. sometimes families can be toxic. I benefited being away from them Now I have self esteem and success.
@IAmLove That is the same with me. My mother and older brother are narcissists as well. Living away from them has been the best thing I’ve done. But I feel sorry for my father for being stuck with them. My emotions are still raw from the visit and seeing what actually happens there. I’m more sensitive than usual still.
He is 88. Put up with a little crap to make his life better. I'm sure the more you talk to him the less cantankerous he will be.I am sure if his life has become what you say it has he is scared, hurt and depressed.
Just think he gave you all he had while he was raising you. Maybe it wasn't enough or maybe he wasn't the best dad but most parents love their children the best they can.
I know it is hard to feel attacked but if you can just take it a little bit I am sure you will find the connection your looking for with him.
Not to be mean but at 88 how much longer does he really have on this earth? Once he is gone you won't have the chance to talk to him again.
Good luck I hope it works out that you can talk to him.
SCbeelady
Level 6
June 18, 2018
3
This is why I'm putting up with this. One of my OCD worries since I was a small child is that something bad might happen to my father. I didn't see him much as a kid because of his busy work as a doctor. I was really frustrated with having to deal with an irrational brick wall. May be I should just pretend to agree with everything and just let him rant away.
He is old and probably scared. I would tell him that I will not discuss religion with him and if he turns the conversation to religion just say ‘I love you, Dad, but I have to go now’, say goodbye lovingly and hang up. Just don’t go there. There’s no point in arguing, He’s not going to change his attitude.
Why on earth were you arguing with him for two hours? You are as responsible as he is for that. Just change the subject or sign off before the argument. He is entitled to his beliefs; it’s not your place to try to change them. Especially not at his age when he is getting closer to death.
Cassiopeia
Level 6
June 18, 2018
3
I didn't try to change his beliefs. In fact, I told him I don't really care what he believes in as long as he's not hurting anyone. But antiquated irrational thinking can hurt others directly and indirectly. He attacks rational thinking and human rights, then accuses me of trying to push my beliefs on others when he was the one doing it. I had to defend myself and my fellow earth occupants. And you don't know my father; he can talk forever. If I were trying to change his beliefs I wouldn't have spent hundreds of dollars and a lot of time finding him the bible audiobooks he specifically wanted. If I were shoving my beliefs in his throat, I wouldn't have helped my mom serve lunch and dinner that included meats. If I were accused of something I had never done, I would defend myself.
@graceylou At no point did I suggest that you were trying to change his beliefs. However, arguments go two ways, unless he ranted and you stayed silent. And no, actually, you don’t have to defend yourself against an 88 year old man, what you need to do is not get into that position in the first place, hence my advice to nicely end the conversation the moment it starts to head in the wrong direction.
My daughter and I used to argue a lot, not over religion but just stuff. I now say "Let's change the subject, I do not want to fight with you and we obviously do not agree on this subject." If she continues I tell her that I am going to have to let her go and we can talk again later. I only had to actually do tis twice and now she catches herself.
As someone once told me, jump off the merry-go-round and it will change the dynamics of your relationship.
CreativelyMe
Level 7
June 18, 2018
2
Yes, I definitely would have to state what subjects are off limits. And just end the conversation or change the subject if he goes in that direction. I spent almost 4 days actually being there in person without the subject of god coming up at all.
I would ignore it and continue show him you care. Sounds like you might be the only one.
bobhoff59
Level 7
June 18, 2018
2
My younger brother and sister in law visit sometime and help out. I think they are pretty tired of the god related conversations as well. They try to be there when they can. I have a friend who would call or visit occasionally. He would also talk about god to her, and she's a lot more patient than I am. She used to take her kids along with her when they were younger and my father liked that very much. She had also offered to help with paperwork and bills. My mom didn't like her coming by because she's not family. Of all people though, I was always the one he would talk to the most in the past.
He is 88. My mum is 84 and I have probably 2 weeks left with her. At his age he will certainly be thinking about his own death and, and what faith and conservatism both have in common are rules, black and white understandings of the world and for the fearful, that can be comforting. It sounds like you are the only one who cares, so let him have his Jesus/religious-inspired homophobia and simply say, hmmm, uhuh, interesting, yeah, and other non-commital utterances and change the subject to the past - the garden, the old house, old pets etc. You can also say “Hey dad, so and so has just walked in - I have to do xyz, love you! Bye! I didn’t have the best relationship with my mum, and watching her die is the most terrible experience. I relive every shitty or intolerant thing I said to her - before she became ill, I took her to pieces about transgender rights. She was a product of Edwardian parents. What is she supposed to know what was taboo 100 years ago is not a big deal now. Her face was so wounded by my chastisement... I relive that confrontation daily and feel sick to my stomach that I escalated it so far.
Livia
Level 6
June 20, 2018
2
He is 88, blind and neglected. Why ooh why would you start yelling? Call and tell him you love him TODAY tomorrow may be to late and you will live with horrible regret & guilt. What difference does it make if he believes in the flying spaghetti monster or ?
AnneWimsey
Level 9
June 20, 2018
2
You may find it difficult, but if you keep the talk light and don't disagree, things will go better. You will never change his mind, but he won't change yours so to argue is senseless. Don't stop talking, he may sound angry, but loves to hear from you, I speak as a father of an only child and I love hearing from my 25 year old daughter who also lives in Canada. Talk about cheerful things and change the subject if you have to but don't lose the loving connection, it's all he has.
TimSundquist
Level 3
June 20, 2018
2
Tough situation. And I'm sure frustrating.
No good answers, but I would suggest trying to call again; this relationship is important...
Try not to take the bait, try not to react to the button pushing. I know it's on the phone, but smile and nod. You don't have to agree, but you may not have to fight either. Acknowledge what he's saying and move on to another topic.
I went through a rough spot with my Dad too, but we got past it.
It's worth it.
Good luck.
scurry
Level 9
June 18, 2018
2
I don’t try to control my girls. When I look at them I am proud of what they have become and in the case of the youngest what she is becoming. I do however still see them running around in a diaper with a shirt halfway up their belly. It’s a dad thing I know. ?
Mikeb56
Level 7
June 18, 2018
2
I was pretty much raised by my nannies as a little kid. My father worked long hours and barely spent time with us. My mother was too busy with cooking and baking lessons she liked to take. I had never been hugged or kissed by them or even told I love you. All I knew was being reprimanded when I didn’t do something perfectly. Nothing I did was ever good enough though I was a top student who was never in trouble with the school or the law. I even got scholarships. I was labeled a difficult child because I was always committed to justice, fairness, equality, compassion for all beings. I didn’t subscribe to my family’s racist ideas. I didn’t agree that poor desolate people are that way because they are lazy and that I shouldn’t help them. I always tried to get my nannies to buy whatever the poor street vendors was selling just to help them out. My brothers and I saved a stray cat in secret because if my parents found out they would be outraged that we brought in a dirty street animal into the house. I guess my parents want me to be just like them and I’m a huge disappointment.
@graceylou my dad was a bit distant. He spent a lot of time in the lab and really had trouble relating to things that couldn’t be seen under a microscope. He made a valiant effort though. He coached our little league team for years but that kinda got away from him in pony league. I still have his slide rule and field microscope tucked away somewhere. I can’t say it was bad. My mom was an ICU nurse in those days. Although she had the brain pan to be a physician I guess back then girls were nurses and guys were docs. I never let gender influences get in the way of supporting my girls.
Tape a message to him from a position of love of what you think and feel. Really, any time in our life there isnt time to have these distances between us since it could all end at any time. But at 88 we all know time is short. You will be able to say what you want in a composed way and he won't be able to turn it into a fight. THe next move will be his. I can tell you from personal experience being a doctor allows you to master facts and skills , but the struggle to be human is the same for us all.
btroje
Level 9
June 18, 2018
2
Two years ago i found myself as a frequent caregiver for my cousin who was dying from ALS. He was my favorite cousin because he was always a loving open minded family man and he often acted as the peace maker in conflicts. He was a religious man who would not preach to you. He knew I was non-religious but we respected each other for the goodness we put into the world. Something surprising happened when he was told he was certainly dying of a dreadful disease. He became an angry, stubborn, bellicose, narrow minded, narcissistic man who felt he was entitled to special attention because he was dying. It was hard for me to witness that transformation. But I quickly realized in a family situation like this the best thing to do is love everyone who was involved because we all had to help our loved one through his final days. Everyone in your family is going to react in their own way. What are you gaining by judging or arguing with anyone? Are you not proselytizing by arguing with him? He knows he is going to die and he is afraid of what will happen next. Surely the concept of an afterlife was created to pacify this most dreaded of fears. Not everyone has the courage to face death the way you and I do. IMO just love them all regardless of what they do or say because this will not be easy for any of you. Good luck on your difficult journey.
kensmile4u
Level 8
June 18, 2018
2
I think I had the argument because that was always the way it is. We bantered and debated a lot in the past. I guess my frustration was more that I explained my points but he didn't bother to listen to what I was saying. I'm definitely not going to agree with him when he attacks things that I value, like rational thinking, scientific research, and human rights. Then his accusations about me that had no basis. I guess I'm sensitive about being accused of things I didn't do. I have always been a target of accusations without base. Even as a child I was accused once of pushing my brother so he hit his head on the edge of my parents' bed and caused a bleeding cut over his eyebrow that had to be stitched. I was standing around with him yes but I didn't touch him. To this day they still believe I pushed him. I guess I was just frustrated of having to take it and take it and take it. After being worn out during the trip "home". I lost it. I'm human.
@graceylou The point you missed from my comment is that your situation has changed. This is not your dad as you knew him. If this was the same old dad your post would have been written differently. IMO since you don't know how much he will change for the worse the best thing to do is think of him as if he should no longer be held to account for his behavior and just pacify him. Make it your priority to help him be comfortable in the end.
Best Regards and Wishes.
Keep talking. You are pretty much all he has...and, honestly, the debates may make him feel like his brain still works. As a surgeon, I'm sure he loved a good challenge....I think he's missing that. Seriously. Structure some basic philosophical discussions that you think you can do without it erupting into a serious argument. For example, ask him if he thinks robots will perform surgeries in the future .....or ask him to weigh in on the debate over government subsidized health care. Then, just sit back and let him "preach" his viewpoint.
SkotlandSkye
Level 8
June 18, 2018
2
Yes, we had some civil discussions while I was there in person. He’s very interested in researching information about the surgical procedures that occured on him and other related research. Also my mother is developing dementia and he gets involved in finding out more about how to deal with that.
@graceylou I do believe he is just looking for ways to keep his mind sharp....and feel like he's still contributing. 
I think if you try not to react personally, it will all be better. He's 88, the odds of him changing his mind on any belief system through an "argument" are pretty slim. Best wishes to you dealing with this...it sucks to feel "estranged" even when you really aren't.
@SkotlandSkye I might find some info on his condition and my mom’s. May be we can focus on those next time.
Let him know that your willing to talk but without the religious crap. Call him occasionally and just disengage when he refuses to respect the boundaries.
Gatovicolo
Level 8
June 18, 2018
2
It feels a little strange to respond as l don't know either one of you, but here goes. It is obvious you really love your father and want to have a relationship with him. If it was me l would tell him l am sorry about our previous conversation and that this realationship is too important for philosophical differences to put a strain on it. Could we please avoid discussions about this subject. His beliefs don't really affect your life in your day to day experience. It does give him comfort as he gets closer to the end of the road. If he brings up his faith, avoid criticism of the things you don't like about the church or God. He is not going to change those beliefs at his age. Sorry l got so long winded. It is just a humble opinion from someone who is not in your shoes.
Sticks48
Level 9
June 18, 2018
1
Maybe it's time for him to wade carefully into a gradual assisted living situation with medical professionals. Maybe your Mom could do the same. Even at the same facility. Also to be free of your brother. At a good one they could eat well, be cared for and have activities. A place that has lots of folks around to talk to and to be friends with. This would probably improve their moods and improve their attitudes. They could even have medical staff to prescribe medication for improved mental health if they needed that. It may be time for that. Like choosing the right time to take away a parents so they don't hurt themselves or anyone else. Just my 2 cents. : )
JohnINFP
Level 7
June 18, 2018
1
My younger brother, sister in law, and I are working on it. My older brother gets tax credits for being a caregiver. But he doesn’t provide much care. My father’s greatest worry is what might happen to my brother. Ummmm. Yeah. He’s almost 50 years old and acts like an entitled child. My parents’ house is worth about a million dollars (house values in that area is insane). They can easily sell that house and move but my brother wants to own the house, keep it to himself. I don’t even think he can manage without my mother babying him. The house is hazardous to my father because of all the stairs. And my mother with her dementia developing forgets things including turning off stoves. But my parents won’t budge because it would affect my brother. My brother is a whole different can of worms altogether.
Only you can decide what you're going to be comfortable with.
Only you can decide what you're willing to put up with just so your
father will have someone to talk to.
If you think you can tolerate his proselytizing, and his lack of interest in listening
to you, have at it.
KKGator
Level 9
June 18, 2018
1
Well, first, I'd say that you're a "good daughter".
How far away do you live from him geographically?
If possible, I'd suggest a face-to-face visit. Many times, these conversations, especially with elders, require more than a voice. Physical presence communicates a lot. If you can, you might try it.
bigpawbullets
Level 9
June 18, 2018
1
Hmmmm. A 14 hour drive. Or an hour and a half flight. I work and run a business plus I have a menagerie of animals to care for at home. I would still visit more if I got along better with my mother and older brother but alas nope.
@graceylou
Nope. Not logistically do-able.
Keep trying the phone route though.
@bigpawbullets If I can get away again I will try to stay a little longer. Right now is just not a good time for me to be away from my home.
His world is so small. You might be his only stimulation. Conversation might be the only thing he has left. This summer, for whatever reason I'm finding myself isolated from my friends. Yesterday I went out for the first time in a long time and I was louder, more animated and less polite than I usually am. I was excited to be talking. Maybe consider how limited his opportunities are and how important you could be in his life.
Count_Viceroy
Level 7
June 18, 2018
1
I would support him in his convictions..he appears to be a little neglected and has grasped at the only thing that gives him comfort..the misplaced solace and comfort of religion...
For whatever reason..thats where he is at..if he is anything like my father..he is now a grumpy stubborn old mule..impossible to reason with..
Maybe you should forgive his refusal to pay attention or respect your dietary code..its annoying and disappointing I know...but overlook it.. that may annoy him more than you if you appear unphased by his apathy or pretence at it..
I would take your own advice..and talk about anything and everything with the exception of no-go areas like your lifestyle choices and his religious resurgence...what else can you do?
Hitchens
Level 8
June 18, 2018
1
sounds exactly like my family dynamic...
I would suggest you set your boundaries and know your audience. Even though he may be of sound mind for his age, he is also set in his antiquated ways. Agree to disagree and just don't go 'there' if you want to have a peaceful, stress free relationship with him going forward. I wish you both well and that you can overcome this. Time is too short.
If he doesn't listen well, perhaps you can keep the conversations short but check in often.
Hazydays
Level 7
June 18, 2018
1
My dad is also in his late 80's and I am fully aware my time with him is limited. With that in mind when he wonders onto a subject I do not discuss I keep my answers short and polite, such as " I hear you, that is interesting, I can see you feel strongly about that, wow I did not know that. " Then I steer the conversataion to a topic we both like such as my work and fianances, dad was an accountant, the weather. If my dad becomes agitated we do something physcial like take a short walk.
Blissfull
Level 5
June 18, 2018
1
Yes, I'm trying to get my father to do more things other than sit around, eat, and talk. I want him to go for walks with the help of those willing to help him. Any ideas I gave him to fill his days and get out of depression got shot down. Any ideas I gave him to get better care got shot down. The bible audiobook seemed to be the only thing that worked.
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