The history of American immigration law is used as an example of one of the most racist and egregious in history. We let people in or kept them out depending on whether we needed their labor or whether we just plain hated them that week. But we have NEVER done something to children that would permanent affect them in such a damaging way.

Of course children cry -- but in this case they are ripped from their parents and taken by strangers who throw them in prison-type situations. Some are being mistreated (I don't know for sure whether the reported rape of one of the girls by a guard in the facility is true) probably in ways that are going to make the trauma of stealing them worse.

Try for a moment to think about this: You go to the mall with your kids to buy them shoes. At the entry to the mall, they are forcibly taken from you. You are not told where they are or when you will see them again. In order to get them back you must depend on an irrational oligarch's demand for money. If this doesn't sound like Nazi Germany, you are out of touch. If ANY individual behaved in such a way s/he would be arrested for kidnapping and extortion.

Why is it ok for our government to treat vulnerable children in a way that would get the rest of us arrested?

@ladyprof70 Your response was based in rational thought rather than hysteria. I appreciate that greatly. My answer to your concluding question is this.....When you enter a mall with your children, you have broken no law. So detention would be unfounded. Whereas entering the country contrary to our laws is a leal violation that is grounds for detention. When the law breaking adults are detained, you have to do something with the children. The term "ripped from their parents" seems like an over reaction. The are taken to a place where they can be tended to while their parent's legal issues can be sorted out.

@balance_point 'They are taken to a place where they can be tended to while their parent's legal issues can be sorted out.'

Hardly - these children, toddlers and babies have been removed from their families and placed into makeshift emergency shelters (because no thought was given to prepare any facilities to accommodate the large numbers that could have been predicted), denied physical human contact, and left with no real way of tracing their parent(s) who, in the meantime, may well have been deported (because, again, the relevant authorities - ICE, DHS, and HHS - were not given advanced notice by the White House of the imposition of a brute campaign). The experience of being taken from their immediate family, for most of these minors the only circle of safety and dependability they have experienced either in their home countries or on the long, dangerous journey to the border, will cause lifelong trauma and may yet condemn them to a state of enforced orphancy.

@BlueWave
Who said I was perfectly okay with this policy? Is that where you get your information? ...from the buzzings in your head?
However, the fact that some people can only see the side of the "undocumented immigrants" (gag) and seem oblivious to the rights of the people patiently waiting in line, while the
"illegals" jump in front of them.....that is disheartening to me!
Sorry if this offends you. But I normally take the side of the considerate people over the "no, me first" crowd. Facts are bothersome aren't they?

@JadedOptimism
First of all, I am agnostic (note the name of the website). I love it...someone on this site preaching about the superiority of his sense of morality. How charming !! It must be lovely up in your perch where you remain oblivious to the facts of reality.

@balance_point I will respond simply by saying that you are responding to my overall comment to the poll. My comment that you were responding to was not directed towards anybody, especially you. Beyond that, since you don’t know how to have a civil discussion without being insulting, I have no intention of any further discussions with you on any topic.

@balance_point These are not undocumented immigrants but asylum seekers, forced by the slow-walking and closure of entry points to attempt to cross the border between. International law affords asylum seekers the right to be accepted at the border and given a fair hearing. Conflating these families with illegal immigrants is simply part of the cloud of disinformation and outright lies created by the Trump administration to obscure what is really being carried out in our name.

@JadedOptimism
Your post that "not all atheists are moral".... It would seem it.had to be in reaction to someone's comments on the detention issues.That hardly came out of thin air. So by implication, you were assessing someone's moral character....whether it was mine or someone else's. You were clearly saying that person's morals are lower than yours. Ergo your morals are superior to those of the unnamed someone. No need to get your panties in a bunch. Oops, there I go being all "neanderthal" again. And if I were
a troll looking for prey, you would be a mere morsel.

, @JadedOptimism
Time to reread carefully. In fact, Mr. Wave said "The fact that there IS even ONE person here who is totally okay with this policy is disheartening." (No "if" anywhere). And that was posted in close proximity to my post, which was the only conservative post in sight. You do the math. He indirectly, but assuredly, engaged me...I responded...simple.

I made my original comment, as I most often do, before I read any of the comments. My comment, as I stated, was in response to the poll. Where it fell in the timeline is irrelevant. Feel free to ask Administrator for a timestamp.

While you were being distracted by this inhumane treatment of children the GOP is passing a budget that will steal your Social Security, your Medicare and your Medicaid, think about that.
Don't be impatient, they'll have you in a cage soon enough. Wait your turn, not queue jumping, all in good time and remember that you voted for this, your own demise.

So grateful for the block button here. Not because I think your racist hateful ilk are not all around me every single day. Not because I'm a crybaby. Simply because the last thing I come to Agnostic.com for is to read bigoted hateful ignorant statements from heartless wastes of skin.

To any of the American men out there who also believe their jobs are being "taken by Mexicans" - I'm sure there are some avocados and tomatoes that need harvesting. After that, you can move north and sort apples? How about gutting and dismembering some cows? Slaughtering chickens? What about washing dishes? You ready to sign up? You eager to do those jobs? Those immigrants (whether here lawfully or unlawfully) work the hardest at the lowest-paying most miserable jobs in our country, and are not "taking your jobs," FFS!

And, regardless of the misdemeanor crime of entering our country illegally or asylum seeking of the of the parents, NO CHILD DESERVES to be PERMANENTLY emotionally scarred because that bastard wants to be fucking king!

@Surfpirate It so happens I voted for Hilary. I am a hardcore Democrat. Jumping to conclusions is one of the traits of people who think emotionally instead of rationally.

@Surfpirate, @BlueWave I agree that Trump is a bastard who wants to be king. I did NOT vote for him. I hate him. However if you had read my post carefully, you would know that I said "The DECENT paying jobs". I was not referring to picking fruit or working in slaughter houses. I was specifically referring to the jobs like working on new home construction, which ARE decent paying jobs that American workers would love to have.. And as for the scarring of children issue, your line of thinking would suggest that we should let everyone out of jail if they have children at home crying for daddy. People coming here to properly apply for asylum is ok. But the ones hopping the border to get a pay raise should be held responsible for their actions. Sorry, we can not accomodate the whole world. No borders....no country. That is not bigoted. It is rational thinking. Ummmm....your pants.....

@balance_point Your pants are on fire and you don't even realize it. I don't know who you voted for because what happens in the ballot box is your business alone albeit I can imagine why a person wouldn't want to admit to having voted for this train wreck of a president. What I do see is a man who says he hates Trump but supports Trump's policies. You say you don't mind illegal immigration for menial jobs that are beneath an American (do they have to be white Americans or does any American count?) but not for jobs they are qualified to do which an American might consider doing at the right price. I am a master builder who has built everything from starter homes to 5 star hotels and I can tell you it is pretty difficult getting anyone to come out and do physical work these days, illegal or otherwise. Usually I get people who have done time for minor drug offenses and learned a trade in jail. I pay above the going rate and still can't find qualified people so where are these Americans who would love a good paying job hiding?
Your comparison of a child taken from their parents and put in a cage (including those legally seeking asylum) with a child at home who has a parent in jail is a non starter but if it makes you feel more human, then you do what works for you. Sounds more like a confused bigot who feels they can hide behind who they say they voted for. Check your own pants, your white privilege is showing.

@balance_point I'm sorry for mistakenly perceiving your post as your being a trumpanzee and assuming you were.

If Americans would work for the wages of those "decent paying jobs," I promise you, they'd have those jobs. But, they won't.

If we had zero immigrants, it would be left to the American workers to convince the owners to share a little more. Would they?

Do you hear American business owners complaining about low-cost immigrant workers (whether lawful or not)? No, they aren't. They like it and they exploit it. Therein a market is created. Even if all immigrants were here lawfully, they would still generally work harder and longer than their American counterparts for less money. They are in it to survive.

Nevertheless, treating our fellow human beings like animals is wrong, no matter the current dysfunction of our immigration system - or any other reason. Also, reducing these horribly traumatized children as merely crybabies is abhorrent.

@Surfpirate
Trust me on this one...I think Trump is the lowest piece of shit of our time. I am very liberal. I wanted Bernie ! However, I am not a straight party thinker. I like to analyze each issue on its merits. I do NOT claim that this child separation thing is any ideal way of handling it. But I am conservative when it comes to maintaining an orderly border. I welcome all people of all colors to come here LEGALLY and join our country.
As for the work, I can only speak for here in Las Vegas. 30 years ago @80% of the men pounding nails in construction sites were caucasion. Now they are almost entirely "south of the border" men. It is not hard to figure out why. Lower wages. I am sure the guys 30 years back were very happy with what they were making, and would love to still be getting it(adjusted for inflation of course). The huge lawn care industry has seen the same change. Less money in this case, but there were always plenty of men happy to fill those spots. I am not blaming the Mexicans per se. I blame the employers who look the other way and hire illegals therein breaking the law. I don't mean to step on anyone's toes here. It just is what it is. And I am not judging what jobs an immigrant should get or not get. I am saying that their willingness to take less pay has driven down wages for those jobs. And whether the Americans chose to take the job at a lower rate or look elsewhere, their incomes will generally suffer (because of people who have snuck into the country). For the detention thing.... Of course there are some differences between the parent/child separation from immigration and the parant/child separation from normal imprisonment. But to say it is a non starter is an overreach that you have not explained. I did not mean to say they are exactly the same. I am saying the underlying principle is the basis for both situations. That is..... a claim that if children are under duress because of the parental separation caused by the illegal activity of said parent, then we shouild just say "all is forgiven, now everyone go on your merry way" Unfortunately actions have consequences....in both cases. So if you want to think I must be a bigot and a trump supporter because I see the other side of immigration, I guess I really don't give a rat's ass. I could easily dismiss you as a bleading heart, politically correct whack job as well. But what good is any of that. Most of all this crap is traceable back to the powers that be....entrenched in long term political positions, or the pigs that they serve, wallowing in unjustified dirty wealth. Aw, fuck it !!
I'm getting something to eat.

@BlueWave
There is a reason why we developed trade unions and worker rights laws here. It was correctly deemed fair and proper to protect the low and middle class workers from exploitation. Now the illegals working for smaller wages have undercut the economic status of the American workforce. And maybe when they used to make 25 an hour and now the job pays 12 an hour, they might not want that job so bad any more. You think that might have something to do with their reluctance to take the job. How would you feel if you showed up for work and they told you your income is now cut in half, and it is because of people here illegally who will work for less? Would you be all happy happy about illegal immigration? And, by the way if all the illegals were gone, yes the owners would have to offer higher wages again, if they wanted to get employees so they could stay in business.
What makes you think the detention centers are treating people like animals. Seriously I would like to know where you got that information. And who said the children are mere cry babies? Lets attempt to stick with reality.

@balance_point "They show videos of children crying and all the bleeding hearts wet their pants. Children cry every day everywhere."

Hate to tell you, but based upon that comment, you're not "very liberal". That comment, to be honest, is not too far above Lewandowski's "wah wah' remark, made last night on Fox News, in its utter lack of empathy and compassion.

As to "the honest people waiting in line for their turn", these are they. These families have presented themselves at the border, as they are required to do, even though the points of entry have been closed or are backlogged.

@Bobby9 Oh noes! Desperate, persecuted people didn't follow the rules! Better do everything we can to dehumanize them and treat them like dirt. Because being cruel for arbitrary reasons is a fantastic way of showing you're better than someone, amirite?

@Bobby9 Oh, and guess what, even asylum seekers at ports are apparently being separated. Because we're classy like that

[npr.org]

and the babies are going to be separated for life its not temporary parents are already deported and the babies are here

@Bobby9 I think you are fake. no pic, no face, no profile. You never been to NYC. What is the main street name in Carmel?

@Bobby9 They're "sneaking across the border" because the points of entry are being closed or slow-walked (not on purpose, of course...) so that the only way for them is to cross between those points. And they still present themselves tp border authorities, as required, when they can.

@Bobby9 No thanks. Immigration is good for a country. Almost all of us are the descendants of immigrants and immigrants bring new ideas, perspectives, and genes to a nation. Without them, we'll all just be a bunch of inbred dumbasses who never did anything with their life and pretend that being born white was an accomplishment.

Clinging to whiteness as if it made someone better than other people is just pathetic and sad. It proves that a person is deeply insecure and reinforces how worthless they are - they don't have anything of value to add to a society so they pretend they can take credit for the accomplishments of those who came before them - they're a parasite.

And the defense of "its the law" or "was just following orders" is disgusting. Anyone with a shred of actual humanity and worth rejects these defenses and these laws as spineless, cruel, and cowardly

@Bobby9 Did you read any of the comments, including mine?

@Bobby9 We've heard your arguments before, many many times, which is where the "clinging to whiteness" comment came from - your "the law is the law" rhetoric is the same as that used by people to defend themselves when they committed atrocities before and it didn't save them from the gallows.

So far as not seeing logic in our arguments, you should take a look at your own - "the law is the law" on one hand, yet you simultaneously glorify those who reject the law when you talk about the Founding Fathers throwing off the yoke of Britain's rule. As I said before - if a law is immoral, it's our duty to change the law, not defend it as you're doing. The Founding Fathers understood this so maybe you should think about that

@Bobby9 Trump is consciously conflating illegal immigrants with those who, because of the murderous conditions in their home countries make what is surely a desperate decision - to pay between $10-15,000 to coyotes to risk the perilous 2,000 plus miles across Mexico, to be able to present themselves as asylum seekers (a right guaranteed by international law) - only to be find ports of entry that are closed or hardly functioning, and so have little alternative than to cross between official ports of entry, where they still present themselves to US authorities as the law requires.

They have done nothing illegal.

The violence the Central American's are fleeing from is, for the most part, a direct result of the United States policies going back 100 plus years. We supported right wing dictators and totally screwed up the countries till now, gangs and violence are the norm. No wonder people want to get out. Odd isn't it, that most of the refugees are from El Salvador, a country we messed up, while none are from Costa Rica, a country we stayed out of?

@Crimson67 And their idiot supporters too.