"Trigger warnings," "Safe Spaces," "Snowflakes," and other current buzz-word criticisms of the so-called millennial generation had never really registered with me. My own kids had grown up with a rather lively dialog and could hold their own in an argument. I really didn't think that any human being could be so fragile that a legitimate, respectful, formal argument could damage their psyche somehow. Then I chose to take a class in physical anthropology...
We were discussing artifacts from the chalcolithic period where copper and arsenical bronze were just starting to displace stone tools. Microlithic artifacts were one of the last to go -- small, wickedly sharp, stone points and cutting edges found on everything from weapons to threshing boards. Another student, apparently female in both appearance and dress, had little evident appreciation of metallurgy or material science.
When I commented that when it came to tools, there was a constant trade-off between "hardness" and "tensile strength." "A harder material can be made sharper and will hold an edge longer, but is generally more brittle." Examples would include glass (and more important in this context, Obsidian) -- wickedly sharp but fragile; cast iron -- again, it can be easily sharpened but is also extremely brittle. Malleable iron can be sharpened, but the tool dulls quickly from use. "Softer" metals like copper dull so quickly that you spend more time re-working the tool than you do using it for the intended purpose. Bronze, like steel, is an alloy that is both harder and more durable than the individual ingredients used to make it.
Now, in the world I live in, both of these qualities (tensile strength and hardness) are very much objective -- we have machines that determine hardness of a material based on the Rockwell (or similar) scale. Tensile strength is likewise determined (destructively) in the laboratory by applying force until the material fails. This data is collected, sorted, and published (at great expense) in engineering handbooks, material data sheets, and promotional materials.
For the young lady in question, this was all "mansplaning" and the reference books, data sheets, and promotional materials were evidence of an intentional obfuscation of the craft designed to keep women out of manufacturing, engineering, and materials science. Instead of hard, objective data, this was all part of some conspiracy to maintain the patriarchal hierarchy and disenfranchise women. When I protested that science and engineering were completely gender-blind, the PROFESSOR jumped to her defense...
What the actual fuck have we come to?
7
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18 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.For most of human history there was a deliberate obfuscation of the science and engineering. Knowledge was power and economic advantage and as such it was closely guarded. In the context of physical anthropology the conspiracy existed, women were not so much as allowed to touch the tools used to make these artifacts.
Now you come along three thousand years later displaying your superior knowledge of the craft and protesting that "science and engineering were completely gender-blind". If you don't see the delicious irony of it I'm sorry. Unfortunately the barriers are still there to some extent, or at least they were 30 years ago for this Chemical Engineering student trying to get the required placements.
This was a physical anthropology class, always remember who your audience is.
Kimba
Level 7
June 25, 2018
0
I do see a certain degree of irony in the situation, and I respect what you (and other women) have had to do to make a place in the sciences. That was then. This is now. We have a world of information at our fingertips, and some of the finest engineers I know happen to be women. One of the people who mentored me early on was Professor Joyce Berry --Physicist, Musician, Firefighter, Paramedic, Black-Belt, Equestrian, and Teacher. She did EVERYTHING she ever wanted to do and managed to excel at it. My own mother taught school for 35 years and covered subjects ranging from Beginner Reading to High-School science. My Aunt, another teacher, embraced the humanities and could recite Baowulf in the original Old English.
I learned what I know of primitive metallurgy from an old-time blacksmith who was willing to take the time to show a 10-year old kid how to make crucible steel and work iron with tools and materials from the past. This blacksmith was of Norse extraction... He told of a time when children would be taught to gather "rattlestones" containing iron ore. Women would roast the rattlestones, pulverize them, and extract the hematite by hand -- collecting the raw materials for iron with the same care and attention to detail they used to feed their families. A "bloomery" of natural clay would be constructed and fired three times -- the first to harden the clay, a second firing to make charcoal for the third and a final firing, where layers of charcoal, hematite ore, and limestone would burn under a bellows-forced flame, eventually producing a "bloom" of sponge iron that could then be worked through successive forge heats, finally producing a small billet of wrought iron that could be traded or subjected to further work, producing finished goods that were just as likely to find use by a man or a women.
This "snapshot" of a process from the dawn of the iron age in Norway involves no intentional obfuscation, no trade secrets, no secret sexist agenda -- just another way that men and women made a living in a previous millenium. My application of modern science and technology to explain (in retrospect) WHY these things were done and HOW they could be accomplished has nothing to do with "mansplaining" or any attempt to hide knowledge.
Frankly, it ticks me off that this person, presumably one who is interested both in the technical manner in which these artifacts came to be AND the social environment that produced them would carry her 21st century baggage back to 9th or 10th century Norway and "jump my shit" about it!
You can't take this one circumstance to be representative of all situations. Just because these idiots don't understand what actual mansplaining is, doesn't make it universal. Lots of people are stupid. They react emotionally, not logically. It can certainly be frustrating to explain things to people who are ignorant in general. Such people, will push back with their illogical rationalizations.
novoxguy
Level 6
June 23, 2018
2
@Freedompath, @Countrywoman, @Prescott, @bigpawbullets, @mhmccabe et al. Prescott it is a pity that despite your name which may well have had its roots in the county of my birth - it is reported that Prescott derives from old English meaning "priest dwelling", you are not able to read and comprehend my simple English without having to superimpose your own indoctrinated beliefs onto my words.
George Saville (b.1710) delightfully put it this way "It is the fools and knaves that make the wheels of the world turn; those few who have the sense or honesty sneak up and down single, but never go into herds."
And of course Fran Lebowitz stated "People - that in my view have always attracted an undue amount of attention - have often been likened to snowflakes....each is unique, no two alike. This is patently not the case. People are dime a dozen and their only similarity to snowflakes is that after a few warm days they all turn to slush."
FrayedBear
Level 9
June 23, 2018
1
The light of your delightfulness continues to shine be through. I’ve always found that the more times a person refers to others as “snowflakes” the less respect they deserve. With every pretentious post you make, you reassert this old belief of mine.
@Prescott And your ignorance ceases to amuse me. Your elementary errors/ failure like your lack of contribution to this thread say little for your ability.
How do you manage to survive as a history teacher?
Do you make it up as you go along?
@FrayedBear it’s a shame you’ve isolated yourself and deprived a poor village of their cherished idiot.
@Prescott Whilst you dance to your selected audience?
Do we have potential intersectionality issues in the actual work and not just in the ranks of disciplines such as history (recent discovery of misgendered Viking warrior), epidemiology (Tuskegee or not testing a hypothesis on women well enough at times), design (right handed maleness may sometimes be assumed), programming (it is possible to unconsciously program one's bias, and there are a lot of males in tech)? Yes. We do.
There are also some issues in science that we are ironing out that have nothing to do with feminism.
Does that mean that the results of tests or discoveries repeated around the world are generally falsified? No. Absolutely not.
daddy2two
Level 5
June 22, 2018
3
It's very complex.
There are articles to be found on the Internet describing women's experiences in science and academia. Some are undoubtedly clear examples of sexism and misogyny and some universities have made news headlines because of it. There were protests recently at Rochester University (I think) about one professor who was giving women students a difficult time.
The battle of sexes is so toxic that's easy for both sides to become defensive and 'triggered'.
There could be a million and one reasons for this. Perhaps some men are not used to seeing women in science and so they instinctively change their language, which could be construed as mansplaining by some, but not by others.
I had a friend who relayed a story to me about how he was once admonished by a female staff member when he referred to some female academics as 'girls', in the way some people do. She pulled him up on it.
I can see both sides of this. Women are not girls. But at the same time many people are brought up using this language.
I try to see both sides of things, because I think men have been brought up to see women as inferior, which is not their fault. Society classifies men as being the default gender.
I would not have criticised like this woman did. That seems aggressive. It's not helpful.
I would have instead accepted that culture takes time to change and this is a generational thing. I don't think you did anything wrong.
Ellatynemouth
Level 8
June 22, 2018
3
Thank you, but I'm honestly more concerned about her notion that gender issues overlap "hard science." It's not really about male vs. female when it comes down to the science of materials.
Mansplaining sometimes comes down to tone and situation. Honestly, from your explanation, I'm not sure. You said this was in a classroom setting. We're you explaining things that were already taught or generally known to this group of people?
AdorkableMe
Level 7
June 22, 2018
5
No, the mechanical properties of various artifacts were really never dealt with in this class -- a pretty basic failing, in my opinion.
Then perhaps she has a different construct of Mansplaining or maybe she misinterpreted tone. As long as you weren't condescending or going over known knowledge in detail, I think you were in the clear. Who knows, maybe she was just having a bad day. Sorry she targeted you though...
@AdorkableMe c’mon can we not call it “targeting” men when women stand up for themselves?
There’s a missing link to this story - why did this young woman feel it was “mansplaining?” Usually that term describes men who interrupt, correct, lecture or talk over women, ASSUMING that they are more knowledgeable. And men don’t usually identify their behavior that way. Usually they think they are generously bestowing their superior knowledge on others.
@mhmccabe Were you correcting the young woman or the teacher? Did you lecture the PhD at the front of the room about her subject?
@A2Jennifer if the PhD is so ignorant she deserves lecturing.
@A2Jennifer yes, he's not revealing her side of the story, then he maligned an entire generation. Much he isn't telling
@A2Jennifer Maybe. None of us where there to see or know. As I said, it has a lot to do with tone. I hadn't considered that it might be the professor. Also, it's subjective...Different people have different ideas of and thresholds for what would and would not be considered mansplaining. As a rule I find that there are usually three sides to every argument; his side, her side and what really happened.
@FrayedBear the problem is men ASSUMING that the PhD is ignorant because she does not possess a penis.
@A2Jennifer That is your assumption . ... assumption from the word assume - "to put an ass before u and me". I have assumed nothing. I have read that the PhD was given the opportunity to learn but like those round here who ridiculously believe they cannot learn from another, childishly block - it reminds me of the recalcitrant four year old putting finger in ear to refuse to hear. That is when you let the stupid child put its fingers on the hot hob and learn from experience that it burns the fingers. It seems that there are those whose rationality is overcome by their desire for calling themself a victim. I find it fascinating that these same "victims" are the ones who have forgotten the men who tried to protect them from invading hoardes, who worked their lives away providing wherewithal for their upkeep thus creating the differential in length of life men less than women.
@FrayedBear I see, women should just shut up and accept the superior knowledge of men, even when delivered in condescending ways to women with superior knowledge, because at some point in history some other men protected some other women from some threats?
@A2Jennifer Your logic, perspective, decision, belief, conclusion and story. Who TF are you talking about?
@FrayedBear i’m Talking about a man who made a “comment” in a class that took him TWO FULL PARAGRAPHS to SUMMARIZE here. Who went beyond stating or asking about the historical/anthropological point to explain how “today materials can be tested in a lab.” To which the rest of the people in the room may have responded with a resounding “DUH.” And according to the OP at least 2 of the women in the room agreed that he was being condescending. This is not “making up” a story - it’s filling in the logical gaps.
Speaking of off the wall stories: “these same "victims" are the ones who have forgotten the men who tried to protect them from invading hoardes, who worked their lives away providing wherewithal for their upkeep thus creating the differential in length of life men less than women.” WTF?
@A2Jennifer None so blind as those who do not wish to learn.
@FrayedBear ok so you’re officially done debating the content then.
@A2Jennifer No Jennifer. Probably not until I die. It was my 3:30 am Monday morning. It is now my 9:30 am and atm I have other more important things to do.
@FrayedBear if you’re just tossing out broad insults without regard to the conversation then I am done debating with you.
I’ve always found it ironic that people whine, complain, and get offended over how sensitive and overly offended people are these days.
Prescott
Level 5
June 22, 2018
6
Those who have not seen the result of such nonsense in the law courts need to cease their asinine comments until they have spent time in the courts talking with perjuring snowflakes, prosecutors and lawyers together with those accused who are ostracised, criminalised, subject to life shortening stress, driven to suicide and illegally sentenced because of it.
@FrayedBear hahahahaha! I knew when I first saw this discussion thread it would be a goldmine of assholes on parade. Thanks for ensuring I would not be disappointed my not-so-good sir.
The irony isn't lost on me... I was simply trying to talk about the properties of various material; something I find interesting. That interest is apparently a major difference between she and I.
My first thought was, this person might have a mental illness? Unless, she was deliberately taking that position to impress or trying to imply (she really believes)that women are being discriminated against. Then another possibility was her prior education! My granddaughter homeschooled her children until the oldest child would be graduating at a high school level. Only, she never completed the senior level and my daughter discovered that my great-granddaughter does not have adequate math skills! My granddaughter did allow her other three children to attend public school (thank heavens, she is an evangelical Christian). My great-granddaughter got an inadequate education, thank heavens she is a bright determined young lady.
Freedompath
Level 9
June 21, 2018
2
@FrayedBear it’s really hard to understand why a great catch like you is still single.
@Prescott Sarcasm - the lowest form of wit,
exhibited by the least witty?
@FrayedBear
I think I'll take cover ........
This is going to get "comment violent"
@bigpawbullets Does that mean that I am not allowed opinion about English usage? I wonder how my other reply to Prescott will be received?
@FrayedBear who is being sarcastic. You seem to be a real gem of a person. You were advocating the violent eradication of those you don’t agree with. You were declaring women to be plagued by irrationality. You claimed that women shouldn’t be allowed in public when they are menstruating. You’re living that sweet sweet Deuteronomy life, brother.
@FrayedBear
I'm in my "safe space"......
Standing by for incoming "I'm enraged" comments.
I recommend you don your protective goggles.
@FrayedBear well, now I had those ‘periods’ for about 45 yrs and been closely associated with women all my life and that is not what happens to women with periods! If mental illness is present, it might be aggravated, but I think you know better than to believe this is a cyclical thing, with women? Surely?
@Freedompath I chose my words carefully. If you think that all women are rational, not a danger to other humanity when pre or menstruating then you are delusional.
It is fascinating to recognise that in 50,000 years of harmoniously and successfully living in an extreme environment the local civilisation could only determine that the best solution for survival of the clan was to send women off on their own away from everyone else for the duration of their menses.
Sadly white society and particularly Australian has a nasty inability to accept prior gained knowledge and wisdom ... Whoops this sounds like Australians have been snowflakes for 230 years - nah just white arrogant males!
@bigpawbullets No, just go to bed shortly. It's 1:30 am.
@bigpawbullets lol. Thanks for the advice.
@FrayedBear i’d say! Not my experience...but you could still learn! Crankiness and irritability are not dangerous on their own, but women would surely be less tolerant at this time! Especially...if mental disorders were present! Maybe, you will come back as a women next time, lol!
@FrayedBear that might work...you would be ‘ahead’ in some areas and ‘behind,’ in others! And, who knows at what level, you could end up at...for the next ‘run!’ Lol there are just endless possibilities!!!
@Freedompath He is just jealous that women can bleed for 5 days once a month for years....and survive. =0}
@Freedompath, @Countrywoman ROFL LMAO
@FrayedBear what exactly is a type A lesbian? Is it different than a type A asshole?...because I've seen one or two of those on this thread.
Does someone's sexual orientation really attribute to their personality?
I have found a couple of your comments here are somewhat offensive to me and I'm sure they are offensive to others here as well.
I am an ex-archaeologist ( teach Science now). In my opinoon there rationale has some weight. I hate to call it a conspiracy, say like the grassy knoll. But there is a patriarchal bias in most modern societies. A lot of power comes from the ability to grab power and successfilly hold on to it. That is the story of males in culture (over mucheck of the world). May have begun as an a case of evolutionary determinism, but can no longer justified as such in my opinion.
As to the gender neutral in engineering, just ask any lady engineer or Science teacher worth their salt and theyll be more than happy to explain to you how women have traditionally discouraged or kept out of science fields. It's getting better, but still has a long way to go.
Regarding the young women, it sounds like she is still I'm the learning process regarding scholarly discussion strategies. Her anst and anger could probably been couched in a way that invited discussion and debate. Been there, done that before. And before you jump all over me snd say "why should she have to" true she doesn't, but if she wants to be respected in the acsdemic arena, she might be well advised.
t1nick
Level 8
June 21, 2018
4
Good to hear from you. I don't doubt that such a bias exists, but rejecting empirical data (and the methodology used to make that determination) based on sexism is inefficient. Further, the evident lack of understanding here will eventually impair her ability to work in the field. The mechanical properties of an artifact are determined both by what it's made of and how it's made. As a four-field anthropologist, she needs to at least consider how the materials and process influenced the development of technology AND society. As far as "jumping all over you," that's not my style.
Are you aware of your double posting and their typographical errors which make them hard to understand? What field of science do you now teach? I am not into science but hope that it is neither medicine nor explosives technology. ?
@FrayedBear I agree the empirical data is gender neutral in the examples you referenced. Her argument wasn't so muchabout the physical properties or the physics and chemistry involved. Her arguments appear to be socio-cultural in origin. It appears from your initial posting that you were excited about the actual physical act of artifact creation and it's evolution. I couldn't agree more, I also found this aspect of archaeology exciting when I practiced it. It also appears that the young lady had no interest in this process. Her interests are more directed by her politics.
My point about the male biases in the sciences and engineering fields is well documrnted. Science has been taught with most of the attention in science and engineering class directed predominantly toward the male members of class. Her argument has nothing to do with the scientific process itself or the resulting data collection process.
Some people will go out of their way to find something, anything, to be offended by. While some like to play the "victim", there are others who enjoy rushing to
their "defense".
You weren't "mansplaining" anything.
I don't believe in "safe-spaces" either. Learn to debate, learn how to argue your
point from a place of fact, or shut the fuck up. No one has to care about your
delicate sensibilities. There is nothing that says anyone has the right to not
have to live with being offended.
I'm tired of some people whining about stupid shit.
People need to toughen the fuck up.
KKGator
Level 9
June 21, 2018
2
Your response assumes that being tough and being willing to take shit from other people are good things. They are not. Not everyone wants to be told they don't measure up, under the guise of "open dialogue." Being concerned about people's reactions to what you say is a desirable, not an undesirable, trait.
@citronella Not willing to take shit is one thing. But in this case, how was shit given?
Agreed and well said...and that comes from an introverted shy sensitive Frayed Bear.
@citronella My comment doesn't "assume" anything. You did that all by yourself.
Back in the day people used lead and mercury in everything. Just because something was done one way in the past doesn't mean it was right.
There are women today that misconstrue the meaning of feminism or assault or mansplaining and they continuously hold the entire movement back.
There is a difference between explaining and mansplaining. I've experienced both. The key this girl needs to know is what is mansplaining and what is not. Example when I was looking for a car, the dealer kept talking to my dad, even though he wasnt paying or buying. I popped the hood and proceeded to check the oil and transmission fluid to make sure neither was burning, evaluate the condition of the belt, make sure it was a timing chain. Things I OBVIOUSLY knew what I was looking at and for. The dealer pushed me aside and grabbed the dipstick and proceeded to tell me what it was, and how a Lil lady like myself should do this and that, which I was already doing.
That's mansplaining. Assuming a woman doesn't know what color transmission fluid is or what a serpentine belt does JUST because I'm a Lil lady.
When I'm in taekwando and my instructor tells me "hey when you do your hopside, try to shift your foot more" that is NOT mansplaining.
Ta daaa
LadyAlyxandrea
Level 8
June 21, 2018
7
Two years ago I bought 2 used cars in a few months (for myself and my teenage son). I was appalled how often I was called “honey” or “sweetie” by men who didnt know me. One asked me if I needed to check with my husband (do you SEE a husband here?!) They treated us with more respect when my (17-years-old and looked it) son was with me.
@A2Jennifer oh man I know. I hate being called pet names especially by strange men. And I can't tell how many times I hear "does your boyfriend like that?" "Your boyfriend allows that?" Excuse you I am not some slave to please a man. One time in beauty school I shaved half my head and a girl asked how my boyfriend LET me do it! I'm sorry he doesn't get a say in anything I decide to do with my body.
@LadyAlyxandrea Wow. And I thought I was alone in this fight. Props sister. I am woman. Hear me roar.
@Countrywoman trust me, I've yet to meet a woman who hasn't experienced these kinds of things
I don't know, but she's bloody delusional.
memorylikeasieve
Level 7
June 21, 2018
0
Both professor and weird student imo.
Have you seriously considered at all that you may have been condescendingly lecturing on the assumption that your knowledge and perspective was superior to that of the women in the class? Just saying...
A2Jennifer
Level 8
June 21, 2018
5
I have no doubt that I come across as condescending on occasion, but a grad student who doesn't have even a passing familiarity with the materials that define our age? How can this be?
@FrayedBear how presumptuous of the men in the conversation to assume that their knowledge is not possessed by the professor. And now you are belittling me because I suggested that PERHAPS there is another point of view to be had.
@A2Jennifer If the professor had the knowledge it would surely be incumbent upon her to take over from @mhmccabe who is not being paid to lecture but has raised interesting relevant knowledge that to that point had not been encompassed. Either she is incompetant in having failed to include the information or incompetent in not taking over if she did have the knowledge. No presumption required. Identifying reality is without slur unless as we used to say "if the cap fits, wear it". You can hypothesise til the cows come home, the fact remains that neither you nor I precisely know what was said. We only have mhmccabe's word for it and there is no other way of obtaining "other views" without the presence of the other parties. Your hypothetical alternatives are simply saying that you are belittling mhmccabe by doubting his word and then misdirecting from his narrative into your own preferred indoctrinated ideology.
@FrayedBear so it’s “belittling” of me to suggest that there might be another perspective (that of the person he is criticizing but isn’t here to defend or explain herself)? I guess this is just supposed to be an echo chamber where we all get on to comment our agreement.
@A2Jennifer You are hardly praising him or holding him in esteem and now you are simply behaving like a troll.
@FrayedBear I genuinely have NO idea what you are talking about. Who am I supposed to praise or hold in esteem?
You keep attacking me because I dare to suggest that there is more than one way to view this situation and I’m being a troll.
@A2Jennifer Cognitive dissonance does result in exclamations of "I've NO idea"? Have a nice day.
Yeah. The yahoos are out there but they constitute a extremely small portion of the populace. I don't judge Boomers and GenX by their weirdos. Wait yes I do.
Bignate901
Level 6
June 21, 2018
2
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