Hmmmm .....being honest with myself I have ask the question, somebody is making these doctors perform abortion ? My logical response would be...No they are making perform abortions.
My next question is why does nobody likes abortion ?
And it seems me that " your body your choice" narrative is somewhat misleading. I ask myself If it's "your body your choice" then why is there an arbitrary line where you cannot terminate ? Apparently somebody else is making the narrative and the rules and you're buying it.

I mean.."they are making money performing abortions"

@onan180 1. no one is making the doctors perform abortions. correct. they do it because women need abortions sometimes. you doubt that some people do things they'd prefer not to have to do because it's the right thing to do? no one likes to amputate limbs either. should everyone who needs an amputation be left to die because the doctor would rather be doing a different procedure? 2. your body your choice is exactly what it says, nothing misleading about it. the arbitrariness of the line after which you cannot terminate in some states, and cannot terminate unless the life of the mother is in danger in other states, is due to the stupidity or worse of legislators. the logical line is NOT arbitrary. it depends on the viability of the baby: when its lungs, for example, have a change of supporting it outside of the mother's body. there is nothing whatsoever arbitrary about that. do not confuse legislative and political reasons for medical reasons. 3. apparently you're buying into a narrative that has nothing to do with facts. 4. doctors are making money performing abortions? the doctors who are performing abortions are not ONLY performing abortions, and they are not making money PER abortion. they are salaried. they do not have to perform abortions. they do it because and when it's necessary. now, if abortion were illegal, THEN doctors would be making money performing abortions. you'd have to be making secret arrangements and handing over money to some doctor who might or might not even BE a doctor, and you might die from the procedure, but hey, it's minimally safer than doing it yourself with a coat hanger, right? but as the law stands now, in places where the constitution is honored, doctors are making no extra money from abortions. they're making their salaries for being doctors.

getting your facts straight is a helpful thing. try it some time.

g

Hey there, I understand what you are saying and the meaning of the discussion sometimes get mired in political or agenda mud.... I am neither. I think for myself. I don't parrot the narrative of others..right or left. I am interested in the light of truth. if it is truth I seek then there is no shame in being incorrect. the truth needs no defense, it is what it is and does not care what you or I think.

it seems the narrative for abortion is

1. your body your choice

2. Its not a baby because it can't live outside the mothers womb

3. questions the timeline of when does life begin

4. nobody wants abortion really

5. "your body your choice". "nobody can tell me what I can do with my body" this narrative is championed by supporters everyday. here is the contradiction...... if nobody can tell you what you can do with your body then why do you accept the date imposed by others in which you "cannot" terminate ? therefore blindly accepting what others are telling you what you can do with your body?

6. its not a baby.. I can think of a lot of negative things people are capable of doing when the identity of humanity is removed.. slavery for hundreds of years would be one of them. its amazing what people can do to other people if the narrative is right and taught to their children.

7. questions of timeline when life begins. I think we can agree that the millions of abortions performed over the years if left to continue in the time of development to term would be apart of the population today and some would be on this blog. we are all in a state of existence and change from conception to death we are changing. look in the mirror and ask yourself when did your existence
   begin ? you know the answer and so do I. and the truth knows.

If you support abortion that's your deal not mine. just don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining. it insults my intelligence. people are going to do whatever they are going to do for whatever reason they have. but i'm not going to justify or sanctify this act with the evil parsing of words. I refuse to be a useful idiot
for the narrative for killing children. I leave that for you to wear as your badge of honor

Here is another funny one I noted....... trump called MS13 animals. Nancy Pelosi Im sure you know who she is responded with her infinite wisdom by saying "doesn't trump know that these people and all people have a spark of divinity in them....I wished I could have responded, I would have asked her if she thought infants in the womb have a spark of divinity ? if yes then what the hell are we doing ? if no then explain to me when this divinity suddenly leaps into the body... I can read these people like a cheap novel...

I noted you said you didn't have a position on abortion. but its apparent you do

@onan180

i will deal with your points and statements one by one so pardon me for pasting them here. my answers are in parentheses following your statements.

it seems the narrative for abortion is

(wrong. it is my narrative for choice, or it would be if you got it right, but you have not got it right.)

1. your body your choice (my right to swing my arm ends at your nose. to that extent my body is my choice.)

2. Its not a baby because it can't live outside the mothers womb (i didn't say that. viability is one factor. you have simplified incorrectly.)

3. questions the timeline of when does life begin (wrong. i question the timeline of when human sentient life begins)

4. nobody wants abortion really (true, but you're going to pretend someone actually want it, aren't you?)

5. "your body your choice". "nobody can tell me what I can do with my body" this narrative is championed by supporters everyday.

(who cares? i am not saying it because someone else said it.)

here is the contradiction...... if nobody can tell you what you can do with your body then why do you accept the date imposed by others in which you "cannot" terminate ? therefore blindly accepting what others are telling you what you can do with your body? (sorry, but your characterization of my BLINDLY accepting what others are telling me is a BLIND characterization. there does come a point before birth where a fetus is sentient and viable and that is the equivalent of there now being two humans involved. the mother, i feel, not because someone told me, either, should take precedence, but a sentient, viable baby must also be considered. that is why there is a date -- not agreed on by everyone, and sometimes decided quite deliberately to prevent most abortions rather than in a manner that protects a sentient, viable baby -- past which abortion must be given more serious restrictions than earlier abortions, when the fetus is indeed just a clump of cells.)

2. its not a baby.. I can think of a lot of negative things people are capable of doing when the identity of humanity is removed.. slavery for hundreds of years would be one of them. its amazing what people can do to other people if the narrative is right and taught to their children. (this is a false conflation and shame on your for evoking it.)

3. questions of timeline when life begins. I think we can agree that the millions of abortions performed over the years if left to continue in the time of development to term would be apart of the population today and some would be on this blog. we are all in a state of existence and change from conception to death we are changing. look in the mirror and ask yourself when did your existence
   begin ? you know the answer and so do I. and the truth knows. (the truth is not a sentient being, to KNOW something. and yes i now the answer, which is that no one really knows when it begins, but we have a good idea when it hasn't YET begun. we say "you were just a twinkle in your father's eye." we know THAT wasn't the beginning. conception sounds reasonable to some but has no scientific basis. you keep saying when LIFE begins. i say when human sentient life begins. a clump of cells may be a potential person; it's not a person.)

If you support abortion that's your deal not mine. (i support choice and i don't care what your deal is, since you appear to be a person who will never be pregnant and never have to make a choice of this sort. but we already knew i was expressing my views. sorry, was i supposed to be expressing yours? you said you were interested in hearing other people's ideas. i don't think you were telling the truth there!)

just don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining. (who the hell is pissing on your leg? you asked a question and i answered! do you always feel attacked when someone gives an answer that doesn't agree with your mindset?)

it insults my intelligence. (that appears to be amazingly easy to do.) people are going to do whatever they are going to do for whatever reason they have. but i'm not going to justify or sanctify this act with the evil parsing of words. (nobody asked you to. you were the one who asked, pretending to want to hear our ideas.)

I refuse to be a useful idiot
for the narrative for killing children. (you are not a USEFUL idiot, i will grant you that. as for killing children, we're not talking about killing children. we're talking about removing a parasite from a woman's body.)

I leave that for you to wear as your badge of honor (oh get off your high horse. first of all, i have never killed a child, or anyone else. second of all, not that it would be any of YOUR business, which is my point, rather, i have never killed a fetus, either. badge of honor. who died and made YOU god? oh, is that an odd thing to say on agnostic dot com? it probably is. my statements ALL stand.)

I would like to say that I am glad that we can have this discussion with you concerning this issue. I haven't read your response yet this morning but I will and respond back..... Keith

Well Good evening, i read your statement and i must say that was a well thought out,
clear and concise opinion.

i do understand your position of choice and that abortion is a "necessary evil" that must be done
in the most compassionate way possible. similar to the idea of supplying drug users with clean needles
and drugs to control it or legalizing alcohol to bring it out of the shadows
because you can't stop them from using...Is that a fair statement ? basically regulate it?

i know my statement was a little harsh in a high horse kind of way and i appologize ... although that may be, i stand by
every letter written until its reveled to me otherwise
And it is clear no one died and made me god but make no mistake
i have no illusions of the lack of weight my
opinions carry in a world of 7 billion people. sometimes i wonder why i even concern myself.
the s**t of the world was here long before i was and will be here long after. so me
expressing myself and thinking it matters may itself be a delusion...lol

I remember hearing a speaker say
as i have mentioned before. "the truth has no agenda, it is what it is".. that struck a cord with me.
i have always been a seeker of truth in my nature but i came to understand that it's ok
to be wrong if its the truth i seek. I don't have to save face because i don't own it. it's just revealed.
conversley i don't take B.S. very well.

i will discuss this from my perception.
i would like to say that i was not conflating the events of slavery and abortion but rather conflating the slippery slope of
societal or group narratives. i remember hearing a report of organized advocates of abortion fighting possible mandatory ultra sounds for
those seeking abortion. now.....why do i think that is ??? it seems obvious. the narrative is extremely important to maintain the present course.
an ultrasound can undermind the hard fought narrative. the narrative matters. i noticed you used the word parasite. now no matter which side of
the isle your on you have to admit thats a narrative that obtains its objective if accepted.

Also the arbitrary line i referred to is arbitrary in its idea, the idea that this is where the line belongs to make it okay, is arbitrary in itself.

This is not directed at you, just my observations..

Sentience is a term used to ease the concience of the public, they don't feel it. It's merciful.
Now you could come up behind me or when i was sleeping and bludgen me in the head with a heavy pipe and i wouldn't feel a thing as i died
but that don't make it okay.
some states allow late term abortion, some late term abortions end up with the baby still alive. then for some reason
according to the wisdom of the rules we arbitrarily impose, we try to save them. Now if he was successful while it was in the vagina,
well thats ok. but 6 inches out of the vagina your a murderer if you finish the job. this is what happens when you play a god that doesn't exist
..the lines are gettin blurry you think ? i read there is 1 late term abortion per hour, 10,000 a year..... so much for sentience.....
Approx 3000 to 4000 other merciful ones per day, 40 million since 1973, not to mention the scarred lives of people after violating there own concience.
yet the all important narrative of needed for rape, incest and
the life of the mother kind of gets lost in the reality of the numbers. I could be wrong but it looks like birth control to me.
"for every action there is a reaction". looks like were causing more problems
than were fixing. I'm sure they mean well though

I know the answers for me but i have no answers for the world.

I believe in life at conception. when the sperm enters the egg the program of instructions for life starts immediately.
Those dividing cells are me, unique. the clock starts ticking and does not stop until i progress through all the changes in my existance to the end.
i can't have a brain until
other things are formed first, i can't be 8 weeks until i have been 7 i can't walk until i crawl. i can't be old until im young. i can't die
until my time runs out or my time is extinguished.

I'm going to eat something... chat with ya later

@genessa Actually, these days most physicians are not salaried. They are paid per patient they see and different procedures earn them different amounts. This is unfortunately why people sit and wait so long for appointments -- physicians are encouraged to double or triple book if they work for one of the large medical corporations. But I would point out that relevant to this discussion, delivering a baby pays more than an abortion.

@ladyprof70 that is not how it works where i live, or have lived for the past couple decades. i see doctors at clinics and hospitals, not private practice. where i go, they are all salaried. i think most people who have abortions do so at a clinic or a hospital. good point about delivery, though.

g

@genessa Here in the Midwest it is far less common to find any physicians in traditional private practice than in large clinic situations where they are paid based on 'productivity'. I don't know about the few in private practice. I only know the situation here in the upper Midwest. It may well be different elsewhere. Also I'm sorry to say that in the regional medical schools students can choose whether or not to learn to perform abortions. I think that's close to criminal. As someone who counseled young women who were facing unwanted pregnancies, I absolutely believe that if she feels that abortion is what's right for her that she should not have any difficulty finding a safe, medical procedure.

@ladyprof70 i live in the upper midwest! i'm your next-door neighbor, in minnesota. of course that imaginary border can make quite a difference.

g

@genessa Interesting. My daughter practices in Minnesota! Howdy, neighbor

@ladyprof70 well howdy do, neighbor!

g

@genessa I am hoping to be able to cross that imaginary border and get the hell out of Wisconsin. It used to be a good place to live before Walker decided to trash it.

@ladyprof70 walker needs to walk, and if he won't walk, help him along with a boot in the booty.

we're losing dayton (whom i met on labor day -- great guy!) and the battle will be between tim walz (not my first choice but i sure am going to vote for him) and jeff johnson, for whom i might vote if i had a lobotomy. i am not planning to get a lobotomy.

g

@genessa I think I met Tim Walz -- isn't he active in veterans' affairs? He seemed like a stand=up guy. Walker is a tRump wanna be. If you disagree with him on anything, expect to be attacked when his temper tantrum is over.

@ladyprof70 i think walz is standup too. i think he is slightly naive in thinking that bipartisan action is still possible in today's america, but he means well. that's more than i can say for johnson. as for walker, i will become very rude if i have to describe walker! FEH! anyway, i voted, in the primary, for lori swanson. erin murphy would've been my first choice. walz was third on my list, but no WAY will i EVER vote for a republican. i don't hate walz. i just really liked swanson (and then there is the bipartisan thing).

g

I have talked with other abortion supporters and coincidentally you have ALL based your opinions on the parasite narrative. it is quite apparent
you are all in the same room while i'm chatting with you or your just parroting a narrative from a perpetrating source you all have bought
into. either way...words and narratives matter. first of all you using the word parasite as a fact is infact, incorrect by definition
("An organism that lives in or on a "different" species (it's host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the others expense" )

PARSITE AS AN ANALOGY....That is correct !

I think you should note however since we are not using
the correct definition of parasite, which is considered a negative benefit to the host, by definition, that using the word parsite other than it's true definition
is deragatory in its nature. the definition of Deragatory is ("tending to lessen the merit or reputation of a person or thing; disparaging; depriciatory" )
To use the word "parasite" as an "analogy" in terms of a womans pregnancy promotes a derogatory idea to a vulnerable patient and to the masses
with the goal to execute the agenda and sustain the status quo. Otherwise why would they use the "analogy" ?

@onan180 you insist on calling me an abortion supporter. i am a CHOICE supporter you are wrong about the definition of parasite and you are wrong about... well, everything else. i am not parroting anyone; i have not even read the other posts in this thread. but if this is how you respond to my points, this accusatory tone and pathetic reinterpretation of my words, i don't actually understand why i should communicate with you at all. it's tedious. i'm through.

g

Yes I also noted in the bible "God also says "before you were conceived I knew you "
I consider myself a logical person and with that i have many questions i have honestly ask myself. I'm not one necessarily follow collective ideas. life itself is a risk and can be oppressive, there are no guarantees. I also know people will do what they are going do, I see it everyday in the news. People are capable of very negative things for whatever reasons they have. especially when it becomes collectively acceptable...
When it comes the subject of life beginning..I have ask myself honestly.. have an ending there must be a beginning...when did my "existence" begin ? for me this question is simple and logical.

@onan180 Hmm... It is a bit disturbing that according to the bible god says before we were conceived he knew us, considering how "knew" and "to know" in the biblical sense is euphemistic for have sex. It's like god bragging that he fucked all of us befoe we were conceived.

I don't know, you brought it up

Perhaps it's none of my business. but you must acknowledge if you ask yourself honestly. what things in my everyday life are other peoples business ?
if you are speeding it's somebody elses business.
if you live in a filthy unhealthy home...its somebody elses business.
if you starve your children its somebody elses business
if you don't your bills its somebody elses business...
If you think you own your own house try quit paying your taxes. they're just letting you live there for a while.
Here is another piercing question.....if it's your body and your business why is there an arbitrary line where you cannot terminate ? apparently it is somebody elses business... also notice the word "arbitrary"

@onan180 it may have become somebody's business if I bring another person into this already horribly overcrowded world, thru religion (altho the babble, for one, does not recognize unborn fetuses, only those that breathe).
You are creating false analogies by dragging in dirty homes, tax scofflaws (drumpy, anyone?) and abused children. The parasitical growth inside a woman is only potentially dangerous to Her while in there (physically or mentally) and is nobody's business, anymore than what you do with your sperm.

I understand .... no judgment here. I'm just asking, if it really is "nobody's business" why can't you terminate after a certain date ? who are they to say what you can or cannot do with your body ? it must be because they are making the rules and driving the narrative. and if they are making the rules it must be their business. the "truth" is they are "allowing" choice but only to a point.

You said babble, I don't understand what "babble" is.

Also, if there is an ending, ask yourself this question...when did your "existence" begin ?

Also one other question....when did your "existence" begin ?

@onan180 you "cannot terminate after a certain date" because busybodies made laws about it! There is No other reason! "Babble" is what i, and many others, call the bible.
I do not remember exactly when my existence began, but I do vividly remember being born.. .nothing before that...the feeling of being violently squeezed....a tough experience, and I have been pissed off ever since!

Hmmmm. well most abortion supporters agree with a certain date, why I don't get, because it directly contradicts their narrative.

The bible however states that God said "before you were formed in the womb I knew you" just sayin

@onan180 AS IF anything in the babble directs my life....and the words are " before you were formed" which obviously means before your were conceived....in short, meaningless babble (again).
Explain the "penalty" delineated for causing harm to an unborn parasite.......?

well if were gonna go there ... it would seem if God acknowledged your existence by saying he knew you (indicating someone worthy of noticing) it would be common sense not to kill it. besides it belongs to you.. it's a natural occurance that nature desires itself with purpose

@onan180 wow...still referring to "gawd" as if it is a real thing, are you? Oh, and warts,, cancer...it is growing in/on you, so it must be allowed to?
Not exactly!

Oh lol, I thought you were asking some question about God. I misunderstood the question ..My bad

What is the "penalty" precisely for harming a parasite ?
I have noticed thats a common talking point for abortion supporters is the word "parasite"

1. first of all i am aware throughout history of societies
   in the use of dehumanizing words and narratives that eases peoples minds when they are faced with possible violation of their own concience.
   for some that is the penalty. i know that i have never thought of my children or grandchildren as parasites at any time.

2. have you ever looked up the definition of a parasite ?

A) "An organism that lives in or on a" DIFFERENT" species."(it's host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the others expense
B) A person who habitually relies on or exploits others and gives nothing in return.

 But i'm sure you don't want to be bothered with facts. you should probably rethink your talking points anyway

But since you are hung up on your personal vague definition of a parasite and host narative,
when this parasite is born it still need the host to feed off of her and the security of her to survive into further development.
why not just kill the parasite then ?