@Renickulous ummm, if the parasite is going to cause problems, you get it removed. Applies across the board!. Pregnancy itself can be extremely harmful!
Explain how one parasite is somehow "better", please?
Exempting embryos , whichever way they are harmful, because they Might grow into humans is nit-picking, at best.
Do you allow a DNA-filled cancer to grow? Why not? Full of human DNA, if growing in/on a human, struggling to live, even affeting its'environment, far more effectively than a fetus.... and sent by gawd, or so I hear.......how dare you destroy it!?!

@Renickulous I am saying an unwanted growth, or any type of presence in My body, of ANY kind is unacceptable unless I decide to let it grow. Period.

@Renickulous it is not "a baby" until is is viable outside its' host.

@Renickulous, so a petri dish of HeLa cells is a person? Henrietta Lacks died in 1951, but her cancer is still alive.

@Renickulous, HeLa cells divide and grow or they wouldn't exist.

All fetuses start out as part of their parents' cells. Does that mean that no humans exist?

Identical twins started out as one cell. Does that mean they are only one person?

@Renickulous, HeLa cells are NOT part of a cancer cell, they are colonies of fully human cells. And I pointed out that your silly definition is so flawed that it leads to the conclusion that humans don't exist. Insulting truth doesn't make it less true.

@Renickulous, if you are going to ignore and change what I say, there's no reason to bother talking with you. I EXPLAINED how your definition leads inevitably to humans not existing. Address THAT and we can continue this conversation. Scientific textbooks address SCIENCE, not philosophy. And things are not assumed to be true unless they are disproven or I'd have a tiny invisible elephant living under my bed.

@Renickulous "In court its at conception..."

What court is that? Abortion remains legal in the states.

"... its the unborn body were protecting..."

Who's 'we?' Are you or your friends or those who you designate going to literally reach inside of the woman, and clutch her uterus, claiming that the zygote is the property of the state? Do we really want that type of totalitarianism?

@Renickulous "...the second a woman tests positive for pregnancy she then counts as 2 people if the physical crime was against her."

The states differ widely in their laws on the subject, with a number of states having no law at all. That you would support measures to remove from women control over their bodies is not surprising, you're a man. As one myself, I personally find it the height of oppressive arrogance for men to try to remove control of a woman's reproductive decision making, and impose their own personal belief system. I don't believe men have a role here, as most women would prefer not to have a man lay claim to her uterus any more than a man would want a woman to grip him tightly by the balls.

@Renickulous "you mislabel the argument ... Im not controlling her body, im defending the baby."

Mislabelling? I would assert that labelling the zygote a 'baby' represents the worst form of mislabelling. And if you're trying to excuse yourself from the male-dominant control over women, it won't work. Because in order to do what you claim is 'defending the baby' you have to control a woman's actions--you must prevent her from obtaining RU-486 and you must stop her from having a D&C. In other words, you must figuratively reach inside her body to clutch her uterus, removing from her any control over her reproductive choices.

Do you not realize that conception occurs in the Fallopian tube, and that the presence of an IUD can prevent the blastocyst from implanting itself in the wall of the uterus? Would you claim control of this process as well?

And as your so-called argument over ‘proof' that a zygote (or embryo, as you’ve called it) isn’t human, it is so. What else is it, after all? It isn’t alien, or from another species! But just as our liver or blood or any tissue is human, so are embryonic cells, whether they exist in a woman's uterus, or a Petri dish or a deep freezer. They are simply identified as human cells by their DNA, nothing more, nothing less. And science would not seek to prove otherwise, would it? You're just making way to much over the word 'human,' which does not mean the same thing as a human being.

@Renickulous Very well, we will agree to disagree. Just remember one thing in your quest to remake laws: we are in agreement that the cells are human, just not human beings. Science doesn't seek to prove negatives (or the 'non-existence' of something), and the distinction you draw between human DNA or cells, and fully human or a human being, is the one upon which the case, and the courts, have already rested. Science cannot make law, just as the legal system cannot engage in science.

@Renickulous as i said laws count

@Renickulous Yes, what of it?

@Renickulous If that's your personal belief you have every right to that. The moment the sperm fertilizes the egg you have all the makings of a human being it just needs to grow from there. It truly is an ethical question that can't be answered by science.

@Renickulous until it is born, it is a 100% dependent parasite, by the definition of "parasite".

@Renickulous No, an infant can move, breathe, digest, even scream for help.
NOT a good comparison at all.
Inside the host the parasite is completely dependent on the umbilical cord for Everything, have limited movement, make no sound, do not breathe.

@Renickulous ooooh, deflection already? They are not parasites within the definition, like a fetus is.
Obviously, some need tremendous help to keep "living", if that is what you choose to call it,
They got that way by some trauma....unlike you, i am consistent in my beliefs that they should be allowed to chose their fate, or their loved ones should, just as I have to put my dogs down at some point. Why could I not help my Mom into peace? if I had let a dog get into the condition she was, I would rightly been charged with cruelty!

@Renickulous actually scientists everywhere refer to mothers (of any species) as "hosts" and the fetus as a parasite. It really IS the perfect description of the "relationship.
"We" are not allowed to kill living VIABLE human beings, but it should be their/their family's choice to end suffering. Quality of life is Key. Therefore, if I have parasite attached, literally sucking my life, and emotionally threatening me, or my family, it is My business what happens to it, nobody else's!

@Renickulous It's not a human, it's a human embryo. Just like your liver isn't a human, it's a human liver. If you're going to say that a mass of cells with human DNA is a human, then you can apply it to all masses of cells. A fetus with human DNA is just that, a human fetus. Yeah, everyone draws a line where it can actually be called a human being, but all I am doing is using your logic of it having human DNA. Next time you get your hair cut, you better gather up every piece of hair since they're all humans since they have human DNA. Hoping that sarcasm can show you how silly your logic is.. I have an idea though, when you have a personal opinion, own it as a personal opinion instead of making yourself look like an ass trying to scientifically prove semantics.

@Renickulous If scientists agreed with you, then abortions would be outlawed, but they're not because they don't. If science agreed with your personal opinion, you wouldn't have had to make a post asking for scientific proof. And yes, a human embryo is no different than any other organ or body part when it is still in the embryonic stage. It can't function on its own and if removed from the body will die without support.

Also, you still have yet to provide any proof of your personal opinion. All you got is that it has human DNA and is a stage of human development. Guess what, a caterpillar and cocoon are just stages of a butterfly, but no one considers a caterpillar to be a butterfly.

@Renickulous Just like a perfect theist, twist and tweak whatever you can to justify wanting your personal belief to apply to all. It's cool though, keep on saying you're scientifically justified while not providing any scientific proofs. Like I said, just like the perfect theist.

PS - If you have to bring up slavery in an unrelated debate, all you've proven is that you don't have shit.

@Renickulous It's not a fact. Unless you're Donald Trump with alternative facts. Before it forms a human brain and a heart, it's not a human, it's a human embryo.

@Renickulous The perfect theist.. lol

@Renickulous Here you go boo. [ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] Now be a good theist and ignore it because it doesn't align with your personal belief.

@Renickulous Oh man, it's almost like I predicted that you'd ignore that.. A pregnant woman is counted as 2 in court because, say she were murdered, they have to assume she wanted to keep the child and therefore a potential life was taken. Now I know you'll focus on "potential life" to make a point, but I can almost guarantee that if they had solid proof that she didn't plan on keeping the child, a lawyer would easily have the 2nd count of murder denied. Because at that point, it's no longer a potential life as she was planning on aborting.

@FatherOfNyx well reAsoned!

@Renickulous Why not?

@Renickulous I have been around this world a lot longer than you, do you not think I have formulated my own opinions by now? I don’t need to do any further research, I have seen the misery caused by unwanted pregnancies up close and personal....what can a young man know of the desperation felt by women in that position. I can guarantee you that if the male of the species were the ones who got pregnant then long ago we would have had abortion on demand! A foetus is just that, a foetus....not a person. Human rights start at birth as far as I am concerned. Please do not respond any further to me on this issue as we will never have a meeting of minds. Why do you not look into why men believe they can tell women what to do with their bodies, that is something I really would like to know.

@Renickulous A 27 year old man is not going to change my mind and there is nothing anecdotal about my personal experience...don’t be impertinent.

@Renickulous "is anecdotal not dealing with science at all. I only care about facts,"
Then use the scientific method to dig out some research and statistics that refute this. As social worker who has worked for many years in child protection I can back up Marionville's claims about the misery caused by unwanted pregnancies. Abotion should be legal up until a pre-dtermined point at some stage before the foetus becomes a viable entity able survive without it's mother. The later this is, the more complications are likely from termination, so the timescale would need to be detremined on medical evidence.
There is plenty of statistical evidence out there should you choose to look for it.

@Renickulous. You do know that the penalty for killing a fetus, in the Babble, is a fine? Apparently your Gawd doesn't think they are all that "special".......

@Renickulous From your responses to others, I get that your mind is firmly made up. So why bother looking for arguments then ? Carry on ...

@Renickulous Debate yes. Argue for the sake of arguing , no... have at it .

I said "ability to be conscious".. When your dreaming it is another form of consciousness , in a coma you are either brain dead, or you are not..
so I completely disagree, its a very easy line to draw.

Your coma example actually goes against your arguement..
if someone is in a coma but is brain dead, we "kill them" all the time. its considered humane.. it even happens when a person is not brain dead but has no visible chance of coming out of the coma..

@Renickulous "pulling the plug is illegal in most places in the US."
I don't think it is.. if the next of kin (or power of attorney) says yes, then they will do it.. both the kin and dr have to be in agreement but it is not illegal if all agree..

Let's look at it from your side..
You get into an accident with a pregnant woman .. 2 weeks pregnant.. it is likely the accident that you caused , made her miscarriage..
How much time in jail should you do for being a murderer?

@Renickulous ". So its human as long as it has your level of awareness? "

do you eat meat? I cow, pig , or sheep has the mental capacity of what? At least a two year old..
We draw lines all the time on what we consider human/not human..
If the majority of drs believe that a fetus is not "aware" and conscious.. then I am likely going to believe them..

@Renickulous pulling the plug, as you call it, is not illegal in most states. In my hospital, when I admit a patient, I ask them their code status. If they opt for allow natural death, or if their family has a medical power of attorney and they choose a DNR, we do not resuscitate or intubate. If a person is basically brain dead, the family can choose to disconnect life support. This happens frequently. This is what makes organ donation possible. The court cases you've seen in the news were not because disconnecting life support is illegal. It's because sometimes not all family members agree and it becomes a battle or an employee took it upon themselves to do it.

@Renickulous dr assisted suicide is a different thing. In most cases the patient is NOT in a coma nor brain dead. Ever heard of a dnr? Do no resuscitate. Also has it's own set of rules..

@Renickulous I think you are choosing to misunderstand. Discontinuing life support is not the same as physician assisted suicide. When someone has been in a major car accident, for example, and the critical care team makes the determination that there is little to no brain activity and really no chance of recovery, the family can make the choice to extubate and allow nature to take its course. This happens all the time.

@Renickulous, @hippydog hippydog is correct about a fetus not having a consciousness, as the brain is not well developed in the first 2 trimesters.

@Renickulous "Think for yourself and do what you think is logical."

I'm pretty sure that's what I am doing..
In the scheme of life where humans are actually allowing full grown thinking humans to die either thru starvation, murder, war, and lack of care, etc etc.. stopping abortions is pretty darn low on my list of what's important.
I am 100% good with the medical view on abortion in Canada..
... once you have stopped murders, wars, and automobile deaths, then you can come preach to me about abortions..

@Renickulous " since people are not always concious "

I already mentioned above that you are incorrect on that.. which tells me you are so intent on trying to preach to others your not even attempting to read and understand the responses you asked for..
... I'm out
Have a good day.

@Renickulous again, you are deliberately misunderstanding in order to support your admitted agenda. Science doesn't define "being human," so saying DNA and cell division define humanity is untrue. Second, consciousness for most of us is our normal state, with breaks for sleep. Coma patients are examined by neurologists, who determine if it is a temporary condition, or if recovery is even possible. The only statement I made about consciousness in a fetus is that the brain is not well developed in the first 2 trimesters, and you made the assumption that I defined being human as being conscious. Putting words in others' mouths does not further your argument. And clearly, you are only here to argue.

@Renickulous Webster's definition of a human is, "a bipedal primate mammal", which tells us very little about the nature of man. I prefer Aristotle's definition of man, "The rational animal." But, by either definition, a fetus is not a human immediately. Yes, I say legally, a minute before birth it should be legal. I think it would be immoral to abort a fetus a minute before birth, though. You are looking for a scientific, peer reviewed conclusion? Science should be exact, which means its terms should be defined. Philosophy precedes science. This type of question is a question for philosophy.