2nd fact - the container?

3rd fact - The universe is and always has been infinite - the idea of expansion is false.

4th fact - this is an old idea, 1st proposed by Anaximander around 600 bc. It is true although I agree its a difficult concept for most.

5th - it is true - don't confuse Time dilation with time, a common mistake. And the Big Bang Theory is a joke, they believe in a kind of pre time and pre space - can you say retarded?

@gater The container meaning the universe. Not what's IN the container like stars and planets and galaxies.

@gater I'm talking about the traveling of items outward IN the container/universe.

@Piece2YourPuzzle Anyone that thinks space can expand doesn't understand what space is. Space can not expand because space is infinite, theres nothing to expand to. And what was there before this expansion? Again they don't understand the nature of space. Space continues forever because it has to - that's the nature of space, that's what space is.

You don't understand what some brilliant men in history believed. You lack the mental development to grasp the concept and to know its true.

@gater did you look up the Dunning - Kruger Effect ?

@magicwatch - Its some ego thing - doesn't matter - I stated facts.

@gater finem Colloquium

@magicwatch If you had the mental capacity, to understand what infinite time and space really means, you would know not only that it is that way, but it has to be that way.

Yep, has no understanding of physics or astrophysics.

@gater not facts, beliefs.

@EdEarl They are all facts.

@gater OK, you are the brilliant scientist.

Essentially yes, with infinite space you have infinite possibilities.

@gater as well as infinite time. What a combo!

@chucklesIII yes, time and space are Infinite - im not sure why so many can't understand this simple and true fact.

@gater I've always thought along that line as well but the sideways 8, or 'infinite' symbol is something I've noticed scientists and mathematicians try to avoid.

@chucklesIII Scientists, and Astronomers don't necessarily understand infinity. They only theorize based on what they can see. Some Philosophers understand infinity and what it means. Anaximander, one of the first philosophers, about 600 bc, believed the Universe was infinite, Aristotle believed this too. So its not a new idea, but apparently only the most brilliant can understand it.

@gater , well, our minds themselves aren't infinite in any sense of the word, so that is completely understandable. The only facts we can say with certainty is what has been seen or proven. Just in our lifetime, we have learned that what we thought were stars are actually entire galaxies. We've found galaxies further out than we ever thought possible. We have proven that some galaxies are moving away from us at different speeds. I'd say that's a lot of information to digest before coming to absolute conclusions. Still, they do. As for me, I believe with all the recent discoveries, we still know nothing.

@chucklesIII Your mind doesn't need to be infinite to understand infinity. What you are missing is that it doesn't matter what we see in space. That's irrelevant. If you had a telescope a thousand times more
powerful than Hubble, it still wouldn't matter. Whatever we can see is
just a relatively tiny portion of the Universe. You don't understand the
Universe with a telescope, logic tells us that it extends forever, and its a fact because it is true, but it will only be established as a true fact when enough people understand this.

@gater I understand your words, it's just that observations don't confirm what you say.

@EdEarl , indeed, but it holds as much water as some of the "educated guesses" as to the size of the universe.

@chucklesIII No one knows. Though, Hubble's Extreme Deep Field hints at seeing the event horizon, and telescopes that follow it will see further. We can never see beyond. Some things are unknowable.

@gater -- explain light year, then show how an event occurring one light year distant is observed by us in a common 'now'.

@evidentialist You don't understand the nature of time.

@evidentialist All things experience the same now, distance is irrelevant, this is the nature of time.

Logically space must extend forever, it can not end.

@gater Logically, what does that mean? Have you studied formal logic and have a proof? If so, please show it. Otherwise, you merely stated your opinion.

Space does not expand - objects moving apart give the illusion of expansion.

lol@ I care about points.

Unless its always been here - which it has.

@Bierbasstard Actually im trying to educate these Big Bang theorists. These so called scientists that don't understand science.

@Bierbasstard Those facts are true - prove them wrong if you think you can.

@Bierbasstard So you can't - didn't think you could, because they are true - good luck in trying to find them false.

@Bierbasstard That logic is astounding. No one believed Copernicus either. In time, the concept of infinite time and space will be accepted as a round earth.

@Bierbasstard What you don't seem to understand is that man will never see the entire Universe, so to understand the Universe, you must rely on Logic.

@Bierbasstard It might seem that way to someone that doesn't understand what time and space are.

@gater Hmm, you know everything.

@EdEarl When it comes to understanding time and space - yes I do.

@gater Of course you do.

1st the Universe is infinite - always has been.
2nd - you don't understand the Universe by looking through a telescope - you understand it with logical reasoning.
4 - What makes you claim infinites are impossible - time and space are both infinite. - And aren't numbers infinite? can't you always add or subtract 1?
5 - I assume you're talking about time dilation, don't confuse time with devices that measure time.

@gater -- Hate to break it to you, gater, but infinity plus one is still infinity and likewise results in a finite number. Infinity as you appear to be using it is only encountered in philosophy, pure mathematics, and theology, none of which are particularly useful in a scientific investigation of reality. It would help for you to define which infinity you are referencing out of the infinite number of infinities available.

[scientificamerican.com]

[www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk]

[en.wikipedia.org]

@gater you didn't address anything I mentioned.

@evidentialist I never said infinity plus one - I said any number plus one.

@gater -- LOL ... "4 - What makes you claim infinites are impossible - time and space are both infinite. - And aren't numbers infinite? can't you always add or subtract 1?"

1. How do you know that time and space are infinite?
2. What do you mean by numbers being infinite?
3. By adding 1 or subtracting 1 from infinity signifies what?

If I have something that is infinite, how is it possible to make it "1" bigger or "1" smaller. Show us how that works. What are the implications of infinite space and infinite time? Does that notion negate the idea of inflation? How do you substantiate that the Big Bang is no longer a possible explanation for the origin of our Universe in face of the available evidence to the contrary? Put some meat on the bones of your statements. Let us see how it works. Show us how the expansion of this Universe isn't happening in the face of observable data. Explain how it is we see this and it proves to be consistent wherever we look, but it doesn't exist.

Your watch is not time

Some of us are even physicists and stuff like that, dontcha know. So, @gater, if you have an actual theory that is at least falsifiable, we'd love to see some of the details that led you to your conclusions so we might assess it for ourselves. That is, if you're serious about this fascinating assertion.

@evidentialist Its not a theory - its a fact that time and space are infinite. And logic is all you need to discover this.

@gater -- Don't just tell me this. Show me. Give me reason to take you seriously.

Wrong - these are facts.

@gater If you do not supply supporting evidence, facts and data, they are just your opinion.

@jlynn37 They are facts, derived by the purest science - logic.

@jlynn37 -- I fear our friend gater is one of those. New Age 'science' at work and all like that there. "I feels it, therefor it izzzzz."

@gater -- Not my job. You made the assertion, explain it. Logic depends upon intuitively consistent ideas, so you show us how this notion is intuitively defensible.

@gater One man's facts are another man's opinion. There are facts, and now there are alt-facts and there are opinions.
Hitchens' razor: "What can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence".

@evidentialist If you apply logical reasoning it is not difficult to understand. I can't make anyone comprehend something that is beyond their ability to grasp. All I can do is give you the facts.

@gater -- Oh, okay.

@gater "I can't make anyone comprehend something that is beyond their ability to grasp.".
.. sounds like you just said your the only person who can comprehend this.
Have you tried to explain it? Using citations and logic from the basic to the complicated?

Its called time dilation - gravity does effect devices that measure time - but not time itself.

@gater -- Um ... right. I also knew it was called time dilation. I thought time was constant for a specific frame of reference but not with respect to another frame of reference with different characteristics. By extension, time is being affected by local conditions of speed and acceleration. Want to explain how this all works?

@evidentialist Time is not affected by speed as Einstein theorized - nothing affects time - it is a constant.

@gater -- Relative to what? Explain how. Don't just tell us -- show us.

@evidentialist Relative to what? restate your question

@Tibert Seems that way at times.