Sure, but they still believe in a supernatural being that guides the universe with no evidence what so ever.

C'mon. Wild sheep species are smart enough to stay alive.

very true lol

Thank you Science.

i suspect you are very correct. And you give an excellent articulation of this point. It's probably a very appropriate thing to keep in mind. At least it's something that i think I should keep in mind. Because i tend, more and more as i get older, to lose patience with believers. But, at the same time, i do understand that myth and mysticism is uniquely and inherently human, and therefore valuable to our sense of self. The trick is you can't start to believe your own bullshit. That's where real problems for mankind happen. And they are real problems.

All due respect to your mother, but I believe that if intelligence is not an issue, it has to be one of two other things: apathy or weakness. I don't have much patience with either.

I think christians like your mother have the effect of legitimizing the religion in the eyes of outsiders. Which just leads to more people converting and more vulnerable people becoming fanatics. I also think many christians who appear nominal, even worldly, quietly subscribe to some of christianity's more pernicious ideas.

Wrong again. She is one of the toughest people I know. Her parents were very religious, weekly church attendees at their moderate Methodist church and the VERY best people I have ever known. Their faith was a source of strength and they were kind, wonderful people who raised three happy, successful adults who all believe in god. My mother started attending church again after her parents died - I believe because it makes her feel closer to them and because she takes comfort in the possibility that death is not the end. In spite of my strong belief that there is no god or afterlife, I would never challenge her faith because it is good for her.
Look, there are a lot of people who take the worst from religion. Who use it to justify hate and judgment and misogyny and all kinds of other terrible things.
But there are also very good, intelligent people who believe in god and choose to embody the values that religion SHOULD promote - kindness, forgiveness, generosity. And if that works for them, and they are not hurting anyone, that is good with me. @bootaski
@ReadyforaChange

@A2Jennifer I'm just speaking from my own personal, insider experience, which was very negative. There were definitely positive things involved, but as I saw them they were inextricably tied to very negative things. In an ends justify the means kind of way. I looked at things from a detached perspective, without being swayed by threats, or guilt, and the whole system seemed questionable. What is the point of having the good stuff attached to the insane stuff? I chose not to (or try not to) be a part of that stuff anymore.

@A2Jennifer No disrespect to you or your mother.

I understand that many people have very painful experiences associated with religion. And I certainly find many things done In thename id religion to be trrrible, despicable and abhorrent. My personal experience with religion wasn’t bad. It just all seemed very strange and illogical to me, and that is reason enough for me to reject religion. But given that my experience includes knowing really wonderful people who happened to be religious, I won’t begrudge them their right to their faith. AS LONG AS THEY ARENT HARMING ANYONE. @bootaski

True. I have always questioned the wisdom of exposing very young children to religious training. I understand how people can't leave all the irrational things they were raised with behind. I just wish that they could see how irrational all that nonsense is.

I think that's a crazy view point. I know several incredibly intelligent Christians. As well, believing in Islam is just as fucking crazy as believing in Christianity.

@Billiwip I do know intelligent Christians, including my parents and siblings, but the part where they can believe that some blood-thirsty god that tells his people to slaughter men, women, children, and animals, plus cut all the trees and sow the land with salt, is a "loving God" is hard to swallow.
But, to be fair, they are liberal United Methodists, and not that serious about their religion.

As for Muslims, since I don't follow their beliefs, or care, I am only making observations on their apparent intelligence, while engaging with them. This is unfair, since I'm being much more lenient on religions I've never been a part of.

Well, here's the thing believing that there is a god is crazy regardless of the religion. I know plenty of intelligent people of both religions but, I still instinctively question their critical thinking skills. Even if they're crazy smart it doesn't discount they believe in a supernatural being with no supernatural evidence to support it. I think you should give more credence to one religion just because you haven't been a part of it.

I've thought about that a lot. I wonder if I could but then I think that Stephen Hawkins was married to a deeply religious person and if he with his mind can put that a side....

@Billiwip have you not followed that marriage??? It's far from a happy union.

Just because it ended poorly doesn't mean that love between believers and non-believers can't work. If anything it was because of the non-believer that it didn't.