@hankster Religion is based on people's concepts of a god. Without some sort of reward/punishment system I doubt we'd be having this discussion. However, the bottom line is that the universe has rules and laws and does not work by magic or supernaturalism and it certainly is not anthropocentric.

@hankster So any declaration for or against Father Christmas or tooth fairies is also presumptive?

@hankster really? Than what is an atheist, then?

@hankster wow, that really helped. So now I guess I'm left wondering how deities aren't a part of religion.

@hankster so an atheist isn't a deist. Certainly glad you cleared that up for me.

@hankster deists believe in a creator that set everything in motion then doesn't interfere, or even care about what happens, or one who watches to see what happens. Its a branch of theism that rejects the trappings of organized religion and tend to live like an atheist would. Its your basic "some god did it and theres nothing we can do about it" outlook.

It does, however, include a supernatural component, as do all religions. Atheists reject supernatural explanations. There's nothing presumptuous in rejecting the supernatural, but there is something presumptuous in claiming a supernatural explanation for that which is currently inexplicable.

@hankster That sounds fair enough to me! I'm an agnostic so my mind is still open about god. At the moment, I think god might be consciousness and awareness. If so, the power of consciousness/awareness must be far greater than what I can imagine.

@hankster If it's true. It might be a figment of my imagination. If not, I think it must be aware of itself.

@hankster Have you considered that the further up the evolutionary tree, the more the animal is aware of itself, which is a good definition of "consciousness"
Many mammals and birds have remarkable intelligence and self-awareness.
Now technology is working on artificial intelligence, and creating a sort of awareness. How long before a machine becomes sufficiently aware of not only its surroundings, but also its existence? It will happen provided man does not hurtle down the path to extinction.

@hankster .... or speeded up the process?
What if man became utterly dependent on his machines, and then their infrastructure collapsed? Would man, (or at least those who survive the catastrophe) revert to being a nomadic ape, noted for having warring tribes?