I don't recommend putting all of the dogs down. I work with a TNR group in order to control the overpopulation of feral and unwanted cats. They are trapped, ear tipped, vaccinated, sterilized then returned to field. In time their numbers diminish due to attrition. I would recommend that the same be done with dogs who, otherwise are being destroyed in county shelters. I also think there should be a government funded incentive, education and training as well as fencing for those who love and want to own them. The County should also fund a separate sanctuary for dogs being warehoused indefinitely.

@friendlycatlady i don’t think dogs can be ‘fixed,’ and returned anywhere! They would ‘pact’ up and would still be dangerous. I know many people that are working with the cat population as they can survive in the wild, but a domesticated dog could not. What about the safety of workers with high risk dogs in separate shelters? And a much higher risk with the volume of dogs!

@Freedompath I am NOT recommending that the dogs be set loose! What I'm saying is that this overpopulation problem is a matter of proliferation vs. attrition. It should be mandatory to sterilize them as opposed to allowing the backyard proliferation. They must still be safely contained, in either responsible owners homes, rescues or Sanctuaries, of course. In time, their population would be manageable.

@friendlycatlady maybe if there was a specific law and the government controlled it. Because, there are people who will not ‘fix’ their male dog...it’s like taking it’s manhood away! Now I have heard more than one person say, such an ignorant thing!

@Freedompath Yes, and an unaltered male dog is 4-5 times more likely to be aggressive! My opinion is that owners have a duty to protect their neighbors. If a mandatory ordinance was enacted Animal Control could enforce it.

@friendlycatlady most places have mandatory laws...people start out and follow the law and then the dog gets to be more work than they realized...time passes and they take their eye off their job and something unforeseen happens. It is work to have a dog of any kind and certainly one that has a questionable history.

@Freedompath Certainly true, and that is why the dogs end up being euthanized in kill shelters.

@friendlycatlady maybe if that fact was stressed to people before they decide to adopt a pet, that they require work as much as any family member (sometimes even need education)...there would be less careless adoptions that end up in a shelter.

Thanks for your response. However, I am not trying to lead a discussion on dog bites. That argument is circular. Let's talk fatalities.

Very true. Some of the statements I made come from Dogbite.org. Their statistics are thought to be accurate. However, there are also pitbull hate groups which obviously post propaganda. It is interesting to compare all the information though I haven't gone so far as to confirm their validity. Something you have to consider is what is the intent of the original person disseminating the data, and are they somehow biased ?

I believe the percentage of pitbull fatalities as opposed to all other breeds is somewhere between 62-72%, according to dogbite.com.

The fact that, at least in my community pitbulls are an unmanageable problem is self evident. They are constantly being picked up roaming the streets by animal control and dumped into kill shelters. They are difficult to get adopted and are being euthanized at alarming rates. The fact that an experienced trainer was mauled to death in our municipal shelter is also evidence that there is a problem. Whether or not it's the dog's fault doesn't effect the fact that this is a problem that our city and county officials must address.

See the difference?

@friendlycatlady The absolute numbers are indeed disturbing. However, it would be helpful if such statistics were offered per 100,000 dogs of that breed in the country. So far the only table I've seen that does that is on this site: [pitbullinfo.org]

It is based on a 20-year study that ended in 1998 (so not the most current information). There are two such tables. The first is based on the second, so scroll down a bit for more data. The second table uses 2 different population estimates for pitbull-type dogs as of 1998 (6% or 12% of dogs in the US), but either way pitbulls didn't have the highest dog-bite related fatality rates. They ranked 4th if 6% was used and 9th if 12%. The breeds with the 3 worst DBRF rates aren't even notorious (malamutes, chow chows, St. Bernards).

The current estimate I saw of the pitbull population in the US is about 20% of all dogs. If that's true, it would drive up the fatalities without its meaning that the breed was extra dangerous.

@vertrauen That's a pretty impressive study. The CDC and AVMA are credible sources. Will definitely have to focus on this in the morning! However, from what I have read, the number of fatal pitbull attacks escalated drastically from the year 2007 to currently. The drastic upswing was connected to the arrest of that Vic guy who was involved in dog fighting. I think a more current study would be more relevant.

@friendlycatlady On the other side, I found this site. [banpitbulls.org]
Near the very bottom the estimates of the pitbull population were/are 3% in 1999 and 5% currently. If these much lower numbers are accurate, then the DBRF rate would be much worse.

@vertrauen Those are closer to what I read. My research says the ratio is 6% population to 72% currently. Yes, that graph is the same one I saw. Notice the steady escalation of attacks from 2007-2013?!

But if that is true, do you also feel that an animal that is easily provoked enough to actually kill an experienced volunteer belongs in a home, possibly with children? Should the shelter be held culpable if a dog they adopt out kills that child?

@friendlycatlady I don't think he's talking about the two dogs from the story, specifically. He's referring to breeds. A rottweiler, german shepherd, collie, you name it, can be conditioned to be very aggressive and violent by shitty human beings. It's just that, because of certain purely physical traits, pit bulls have been the choice of assholes everywhere to breed for fighting.

What is so difficult to understand about the owners and upbringing being the issue? Every pit bull I have ever met (and there have been many dozens over 48 years) have all been gentle and loving. But then again, they weren't trained from birth to attack and kill. @#$!%& amazing how that seems to work.

@friendlycatlady Any dog that is "provoked enough" will attack, no matter of the breed.

@Piratefish It's not that it's too difficult to understand, it's that it is counter to the testimonials I have heard and read about, where the dogs were raised from puppies and NOT abused, but to the surprise and horror of their owners they suddenly seemed to snap, and kill. Saying it is all dependant on how the dogs were raised inadvertently places the blame on the victim. This is what I find most disturbing.

@friendlycatlady Where are these verified stories of all these dangerous, violent pitbulls that suddenly rise up and attack their owners without provocation? Maybe one out of a million dogs will do that, kind of like people. But there is zero scientific evidence that supports the notion that an entire breed of dog is bad or dangerous. Zero. But, please, be my guest and prove me wrong. Share just one scientifically conducted, valid, peer-reviewed, replicated study that shows a statistically significant difference between pit bulls and any other breed when it comes to natural aggression and propensity for violence. I'll be waiting .... and will most likely die from old age before such a study can be found (because they don't exist - it's nonsense).

@Piratefish Just to clarify, the two dogs being touted for Adoption were NOT the ones who killed her. That was a separate pitbull, who was euthanized. But what disturbed some people was the fact that the other woman used the death as a way to advocate for the other dogs, within days, and they were the same breed as the one who killed her. To me, a more fitting tribute to the victim and her family would be to enact some type of legislation to prevent another fatal dog attack!

@Jolanta That's assuming that the volunteer "provoked the dog enough" for it to kill her. I find that assumption to be very disturbing. If whatever she might have done was enough to be mauled to death, what guarantee is there that a small child might not meet the same fate?

@Piratefish The live testimonials I saw were on line. I can't prove their validity, but there are dozens of them. You can also access photos of mauling victims, including small children and elderly people. I can not prove that none of these dogs were provoked. But the accounts, and photos to me are self evident that regardless of the circumstances, these fatalities are happening and that is enough for me to be alarmed and consider it a problem.

Exactly! I suggested breed specific sterilization, and was condemned for it! Is makes perfect sense to me, since, I too sympathize with the ones who are born into a world where they will most likely end up in a kill shelter. Right now both of our municipal shelters are innidated with Pitbulls, and they are being euthanized by the hundreds!

Any dog's jaws are made to kill. They are natural predators descended from wolves. If a collie was raised from birth to be violent and aggressive, it would be just as dangerous as a pit bull. Any similar size dog would be. But pit bulls have this misfortune of being chosen by violent assholes everywhere to raise as fighting dogs, and those are the pit bulls who are dangerous. All the other ones I have ever met were raised by decent human beings and are among the most loving, gentle animals I have ever seen.

@Piratefish Good. I'm happy to hear that

@Piratefish I beg to differ. Pitbulls are bred for jaw strength. They are far more dangerous than other breeds for that reason alone, not to mention temperament and other bred-in aspects of the animal. If what you said were true, we would also have "pit-collies," and we don't.

@Deb57 A collie can kill someone just as dead if it decides to. All dogs of the same size have enough bite force to kill a person. Anything pit bulls have is overkill. A flyswatter kills a fly just as dead as a hammer. Fortunately, assholes don't rear collies from pups to be vicious killers. So beg to differ all you would like, it doesn't change simple facts. If a collie decides it is going to kill you, it will. Unless you get help or get lucky.

Do a quick Google search. The news is littered with stories of dogs of EVERY breed killing people. It's not the breed! The ignorance is absolutely staggering. But believe whatever you want to believe. Who cares about data and facts?

[buzzfeednews.com]

[en.wikipedia.org]

@Piratefish What's up with the snark? What I begged to differ about is what is bred in to the animal. Genetics matters. Collies, are not traditionally bred to be killers, they are not bred with the inclination to kill. Pitbulls are. While you may be acquainted with some cuddly, lovey pitbulls (I am too) they have been bred for generations for a certain temperament, as well as physical traits, that most dogs have not. I don't doubt that a collie or even a swarm of peek-a-poos could kill me under the right circumstances, but the odds of damage to me increase dramatically when a pitbull is the dog in my vicinity.

@Piratefish The big picture here is that, regardless of who's at fault, or whether or not there are exceptions, the breed in question is the one which for whatever reasons has the most troubling impact on our Animal shelters and communities. This is self evident in the fact that just in this month alone, in the state of Florida there has been one fatality, and at least another severe mauling involving the breed. Florida has a serious problem, and it's not a Collie problem. If it were we would be discussing Collies.

We have a dalmatian in my neighborhood that is known to act aggressively. It also escapes about twice a month from it's yard, and even attacked the other neighbor's tiny dog. I noticed that the dog is not neutered, which makes it even more likely to hurt someone. I think cracking down on owners like that is more than justifiable.

Thank you for that information . However, I don't think it's fair to malign the victim of the attack by using her past addiction as a reason to question her professionalism. These are reformed addicts who no longer use, so I doubt that was the case. I think assuming things about the victim, as opposed to accepting the fact that a dog who is capable of mauling someone to death requires strick regulation is a part of the problem.

@friendlycatlady I said it could be. There is some logical reason, in that dogs mind, to attack. Simply that as humans we generally don't see it ... dog language is highly complex and very subtle and to see what is being said often requires deep knowledge of the signs and careful attention to the dog. With a lhasa apso or other small dog the downside of getting it wrong are not too bad .. with a pit bull, the downside is really bad.
Pit bulls have a place .. trained to work they will defend an airfield or any other place you want secured better than a GSD, but they are highly focused dogs, not suitable for most people to handle.
As an aside, the worst bite I ever had was from a miniature poodle which clamped its jaws on my hand - I could see daylight through the wound - because I took the dog for granted and was not paying enough attention to its fear,

@ShadowAmicus I understand. My take on this is that most of us can not be expected to read a dog's mind. I also read that some dogs do not signal before an attack. My main concern is with small children who can't be expected to know better than tease or somehow provoke a dog capable of killing them. That's why I think it is more important to safeguard their lives. If we must coexist with potentially dangerous animals, the emphasis should be on how to minimize the risk.

@ShadowAmicus This is my 3 year old neighbor, Pumpkin. Pumpkin doesn't know how to read a dog's mind. He went over to my other neighbor's fence, which is not secure and yelled at their dogs. This is why I feel all fences should be inspected and not have holes or cracks in them.

@friendlycatlady old song by crosby stills nash and young ; teach your children well'
If a child verbally or physically 'attacks' a strange dog it is open to retribution - in a dogs mind it is a subserviant non-pack member seeking dominance - same may apply to a child the dog knows well, but there will be familial inhibitors mitigating the childs actions in the dogs eyes.
If anyone has a dog, they have a duty to keep their property secure, particularly with some breeds.
Equally, parents have a responsibility to teach their children how to behave.
I have seen many children kick, hit, bite and scream at a dog - but if the dog retaliates, it is the dog takes the blame ... my opinion, you will not like; there is a surplus of stupid people in the world and there is no excuse to allow them to propogate.

@ShadowAmicus You're right. I did not like this comment. An adorable child should never lose his life for doing what is intrinsic to them, regardless on where the blame is placed.

Some people are questioning the validity of that data. Either that, or they keep yelling that it's not the dog's fault, it's people who turn them viscous, thereby unwittingly admitting that there is a problem. What they refuse to see is that defending the dogs doesn't change the facts. What needs to be done is to find SOLUTIONS to minimize the risk to the public. I have also seen graphs that clearly show that the frequency of dog maulings has been steadily rising. I'm with you. My worst nightmare is being mauled by a dog, and then having people say, " It's not the dog's fault. She must have provoked it." What a senseless way to die!

@friendlycatlady

I have been attacked by eight unleashed dogs while hiking and snowshoeing. It took six months for my knee to heal after one attack. Now I feel understandably terrified of strange dogs.

None of the dog owners apologized. None of them controlled their dogs when I asked them to. They blamed me: "He never did that before."

"He's friendly!" they said lamely when I asked them to control their aggressive dog.

Now when dogs rush at me, barking and growling, I vigorously whisk my sharp hiking poles at my feet, criss-crossing the poles in front of me. An effective barrier.

"Stop waving your poles!" dog owners say. "You'll hurt my dog."

That's my plan. "Then control your dog!"

People who refuse to control their dogs are disrespectful and selfish.

edited

@LiterateHiker I feed all the stray cats in my neighborhood. One guy let's his large breed dog loose all the time. He claims that the dog is harmless and just wants to play with the cats. It's difficult enough for me to get all of the cats fed without someone letting their dog chase them all away. Besides, I am rightfully afraid for the cats and myself. This morning I finally left a note on his car, polietly asking him to control his dog. Everyone in my neighborhood used to left their dogs run loose, and I have been lunged at and nearly attacked on my own property. You're right it's disrespectful and ignorant as hell

@LiterateHiker Have you ever considered carrying a can of Mase or even a gun while you are hiking?

@friendlycatlady

I refuse to buy a gun. Mace is illegal in Washington State.

Years ago, I had a small pepper spray canister on a wristband. Sprayed it in the face of an attacking, large dog. The dog yelped, turned tail and ran.

With pepper spray, be careful with the wind. If it blows into your face, it temporarily blinds you.

The pepper spray canister dried out in my car. And the black Velcro wristband was itchy and hot. Didn't replace it.

Quickly criss-crossing hiking poles at my feet makes dogs back off. Perfect. I don't stop when dog owners protest. To hell with them. Yes, I will poke out a dog's eyes if it attacks me.

People need to control their dogs.

@LiterateHiker Thanks for the info. I think I will try to get the Mase. Wasn't sure if it would be effective against a dog attack or not. A friend of mine also advised that if it comes down to life or death, gauging your finger into an attacker's eye socket will kill it ! Unbelievable that we have to have a discussion like this in order to insure our own safety! I am planning to write a letter to the editor and will be considering all viewpoints. Once the letter is sent, I will post it to this group.

@friendlycatlady

Karen carries a large canister of cougar spray. It's pepper spray.

Although Karen hikes every day, she has never used it.

@LiterateHiker right, on it is the owners responsibility to know/control their dog. Some dogs due to breeding just should not be. Some people also.

Whether or not the breed is inherently violent is not the point of this post. Many claim, as you do that people are always to blame. My point is that since people have proved to be irresponsible and incapable of handling this breed, what safety and other measures can we take to minimize the chances of this tragedy happening in our communities?

totally agree

It is a sad situation. This is such a contentious issue, that I chose not to discuss it on Facebook. I am "friends" with most of the rescue people due to my volunteer work with Community cats. I don't know what the solution is, and don't want to add any fuel to the fire. I just hope that our County Commissioners and Animal Control can reach an agreement with the Animal Welfare organizations and come up with a solution based on facts, and not just beliefs and emotions.

First of all, this and all of the other fatal and devastating pitbull attacks this month are not accidents. The victims didn't trip and fall into the dog's mouths. The dogs involved intended, fully, to kill random people and pets. In some instances, they succeeded. Secondly, 72% of all fatal and severe attacks involved pitbulls. Therefore, blame is not the issue. Refusing to accept facts is the problem. All potentially dangerous dogs who are capable of KILLING innocent victims must be contained and controlled by the owners at all times.

@friendlycatlady Again, not all pit bulls attack. All dogs are cspable of hurting people, as well as most animals.

@AzVixen52 That's what I just said. Not all pitbulls will ever maul or attack anyone. However, as a precaution, to ensure OTHER people are also respected all dog owners should be willing to take every measure to control their dogs. Pit enthusiasts claim this is a people problem, not a dog problem. You can't have it both ways. If it's a people problem, the people must be forced to follow certain rules.

Agree, I have been terrorized by a dachshund and smothered with love by pits and rots. It's a people problem.