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After over a decade of mostly ignoring, shutting down, or being more than a little combative in the conversation(s) about god from my very fanatical baptist father, I recently decided to actually start a back and forth email discussion with him. This way we can each take our time to read the others' position, concerns, questions and respond in kind, asking clarifying questions, etc.. without having to deal with interruptions, time restraints, saying things we don't mean, and generally allowing us to take our time, research or look into suggestions or challenges we might pose, and offer a measured, calm response.

I am not expecting to change my father's mind or deconvert him. I don't think there are many things that could. I've told him as much, and made it clear to him that the chances of him "bringing me back to god" are even slimmer. The intent is simply to understand his position as clearly as possible, and for him to understand me. In addition to that I figure it would be beneficial to both of us to ask any questions we may have about each others' position, beliefs, etc.

Admittedly, it has gone fairly predictably so far. But I attribute that more to my initial approach of going almost straight for the questions I have about the bible. So I've sort of hit reset on the conversation and sent a longish (all my emails tend to be lengthy) detailed explanation of when and how I came to where I am. Without getting into science or reason. So now I'm just awaiting his response.

What do you think? Have you had conversations like this with your parents? Do you think it hurt or helped your relationship or mutual understanding with/of them?

DaveBA5150 4 June 18
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24 comments

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6

Communication is good. Doing it in writing is smart.

skado Level 9 June 18, 2019
6

Good for you for keeping dialogue open with your father and having an open mind.

My mother was an atheist. Dad never went to church.

So they were supportive when I became an atheist at age 13.

I kind of envy you for that. I can't help but think of how much better use my dad could have put those thousands of dollars he'd given the church over the years. He could have put it in a college fund for my sister and I. Instead neither of us have so much as an associates degree. Not all his fault, obviously, just a sore point and a what if.

5

Keep talking with your dad don't lose that

bobwjr Level 10 June 18, 2019
4

I think it is good to offer a line of communication with your parents. Whether or not they accept the offer (and you), you are doing what you can. Just remember it is neither in your power nor your responsiblility to change another person.

Buxx Level 7 June 18, 2019
3

Why not? If your aim is to convert him that is disingenuous and just fulfills your desire for him to be like you. If however it is to get to know each other better its a brilliant idea and hopefully encourages a relationship between two people rather than the flailing arms of ‘superior’ ideologies

I could never convert him no matter I try. He's 70 and has been a born again christian for a good 80-90% of his life. There's no teaching that old dog new tricks in terms of thinking. The goal now, is just to understand each others' thoughts and beliefs. Thats it

2

I founf that long exchanges with people, especially men, require bulleted points to further understanding.

2

I think if you both come from the place of being right and the other wrong, time better spent would be on a topic that would enhance what you both love.

I mean I know I'm more right than he is, lol. But no, that's not where my latest email is coming from. All I did, or really intend to do, is state my thoughts or beliefs, and let him do the same. My goal is no longer to debate him. Instead, I realized that most of the time, when I thought of what he believed, its possible I was straw manning him because I've never really cared to actually ask him. I have a good understanding of some of his beliefs, but not a full picture. These conversations are to remedy any misunderstandings we may have of one another.

@DaveBA5150 Great place to come from. I always think if .I believed what they did, I would get it, so it makes sense they don't get me. So refreshing you are working to get each other even when such a difference.

2

I think it sounds perfect what you are doing. No screaming, no raised voices, nobody’s angry face, etc, etc.

Exactly

2

Communication is always good. And having a calm reasoned discussion, if both of you can manage it, is very good. Luckily, my father was a philosopher at heart, and we could discuss anything. Him leaving the church when I was young also made me start questioning it, and put me on the path I'm on today.

2

For the reasons you mentioned, I think it's a great idea to approach the conversation in this manner. I've no helpful experience with it, so I'll just wish you the best of luck!

2

Welcome to the asylum. Enjoy your stay.

Good luck with your plan.

1

Always good to talk and even better not to have expectations.

I agree, you can have goals or hopes for a conversation, sure. But to actually fully expect to meet them is just setting yourself up for disappointment

1

Nice try, good effort as well, BUT, in my experiences with my 'mother,' who was a somewhat religious person ( when it suited her) I learned quite early that " you can lead a believer to reason BUT you can't actually make them think."
My Dad, on the other hand, was a 100% full on Atheist and encouraged us children to think for ourselves and never to take things like religion at face value.
Out of the 5 children in my family, 2 are Atheists, my self included, and 3 turned to religion only to eventually realize, later in life, that their father was right after all.

I agree completely. Its why I have no expectation of leading my father to reason. The best I can hope for, is that he'll understand MY reasons for being unable to believe, and perhaps provide insights into precisely what he does.... the goal is more to come to a mutual understanding of each other, rather than to have a debate..... I hade tried the debate tactic, all I got in response were bible quotes and more assumptions about what things meant. Showing the typical backward reasoning and mental gymnastics.

@DaveBA5150 Best of luck with reaching a " mutual understanding with your father."
Such things, in my experiences, are extremely rare and hard to attain, though having said that I have actually attained a rare few between my self and members of the clergy from time to time, the first ever being with the Hospital Chaplain when, out his curiosity I suppose, he wanted to discuss with my daughter and I why we were Atheists, etc,
To cut a long story short, after numerous coffees and over an hour of discussing he finally saw that Reasoning, Logic and proven Empirical Facts far out-weigh religious beliefs based solely upon things that can only surmised and never proven.
Perhaps he was not as deeply embedded in his beliefs as he always thought so, just maybe, a similar type of tactic/discussion MAY yet yield results with your father.

1

A calm dialogue can always be helpful, wish you well on your journey.

Thanks!

1

Oof....
Really I don’t see the point.
It’s like a marriage or friendship argument that is never won.
Either you both agree to disagree or you part ways.

If we have to win an argument with a loved one, then we already lost.

I’m not saying that’s what you are doing here. It sounds like you just want to be understood, but how can he understand?
He has faith.
That’s a conversation ender.
There is no counter argument to that.

I mean fuck they believe in magic of all things.
That’s no different then Santa Claus to us.

But they believe this shit man.

As a young man I told my mother there was no god. That’s something that has permanently injured her. The worry it has created for her is something I feel regretful for.

To me it has nothing to do with religion. It’s just simply a kind gesture to a wonderful woman that has never done any wrong to me.
She never pushes her beliefs on me, but I know she’s worried about my soul.

Yeah yeah yeah, roll your eyes and say what you will, but my mother is a good honest hard working human being that would give a stranger her last dollar.

I would stop the conversation with your father. Each of you know where the other stands.

Can you each live and respect each other with your respected differences?

If not then go your separate ways and deal with those consequences individually. I don’t speak to my father and for now I’m good with that.

You can’t make an elephant be a lion my friend.

Good luck

The thing is, I DON'T think he knows where I stand. Your mother sounds a lot like him actually. I don't think he really understands what I mean when I say I'm an Atheist. I've tried explaining it before, but not sure how successfully. That is part of the point. He loves me, and despite how shitty I feel about it, I can't say I love him. At the same time, he is, or at least tries to be, a good man. So I want to understand him in turn. Thats it.

1

It's good to practice tolerance of another person's ideas when they disagree with us (generally, anyway. I don't mean we shouldn't argue or work against beliefs or ideas that we think are clearly wrong or bad.). Maybe these discussions are beneficial to the relationship between you and your dad, too.

0

I never had these kinds of conversations because I didn't care about my family's beliefs and they didn't care about my lack of. I didn't need to understand them - they didn't need to understand me. I wasn't threatened by them and they weren't threatened by me. We had far more important things to talk about and and it was these far more important issues that kept us together and engaged. I was lucky perhaps - my family didn't care if I didn't show up for church - but they sure appreciated when I was there on a cold Vermont day to shovel the driveway or bring in extra firewood. Or when I cooked for my grandparents when my grandmothers' breathing got worse or when I tended my grandfathers' garden after his hip surgery. These issues or events or whatever you want to cell them are far more important than our religious differences.

0

I think after a certain point, the best thing to do is to get away from all the arguments and explanations of why you are where you are in your thinking on being religious or non-religious, and both people need to just agree to move on from the issue and just live life as two people who care about each other. Enjoy the every day things. Share in the love of the kids. Talk about your jobs. Etc etc etc. I know it's easier said than done because one person in the conversation might be more biased towards the other for their beliefs, but I think it's important to try it.

To be honest... I have exactly zero interest in his life. Occasionally we have interesting discussions regarding computers, or various other topics, but the moment he starts prattling on about his life, I tune out. This conversation is me puting in effort to talk

0

During a conversation, even a written one, some people don't react well to positions that appear to challenge their own thinking. They won't see the other side in the heat of the moment because it's painful to be wrong. Emotions take over. Time and space are the key, here. It is not easy to change one's hard-felt belief system without facing personal embarrassment. Many people who know they are wrong need to be alone with those feelings for a while before they can admit to them...and that's where you need to butt out and just let it happen. Or not.

And, at the end of the day, some people are just not able to go all the way on that journey. We have to let those people be. They need the safety and comfort of that certainty and it's not our business to be pulling the rug out from under them. We must stand aside or we face damaging the relationship, and we'll deserve at least some of the blame for it.

The best thing we can do is state facts as we know them as plainly and clearly as possible and let them soak in on their own. No arguing, no display of negative emotion, just plain words that simply state a position.

It took my father some time to come around. Plain words, solid facts, and the space to be wrong without embarrassment proved to be the way to go. That's the best we can hope for.

Edit: of course, if we have a specific intention of changing someone's mind, we have to expect the conversation to go south at some point. If that is your goal, give up on the idea. That's no better than conversion therapy.

sighs I appreciate your input, but if you had read the actual post you might have seen the part where I explain I have no intention or expectation to change his mind. In fact, I suspect he uses his faith to keep him on the straight and narrow. If there's a hell, then acting on certain urges I suspect he may have, would condemn him to it. Now I don't believe in gods, devils, heaven or hell, but if he does and it keeps him from acting the way I suspect he would otherwise feel compelled, then so be it.

The entire point of the conversation, is to attempt to understand him, and he me. Perhaps if he realizes why I don't believe, he'll give up preaching to me. I mean he's gotten better about it since, a few years ago, when I explained in no uncertain terms, that starting in on a sermon is the best way to immediately be hung up on. But he still sneaks god talk into birthday cards and letters tacked onto gifts.

This is my way of keeping a dialog open with him without being bored to hell of him going on and on about what he's been up to with his wife or step-grandchildren. Because I truly could not care even a little less.

@DaveBA5150 I did read it, and I didn't miss the part where you stated you weren't trying to change your dad's mind or deconvert him. I added that last bit as an edit after the fact, based on some things you said in comments below some of the replies. But we can set that aside, as there appear to be other more pressing matters at hand:

In another thread, you stated you and your mom believe your dad may be a pedophile. It turns out that you have bigger fish to fry than reading opinions on the internet.

Best of luck.

More suspect, based on circumstantial, and therefore unprovable evidence that he may have an unhealthy attraction to significantly underage girls. Though that certainly is a concern of mine, I have no reason or evidence to leade me to believe he has acted on any attraction or urges he may feel. As such, unless I learn otherwise, there really isn't any purpose in acting as though it is true, instead I remain alert for any slipups in speech or action to offer more insight.

So until I have some method of concretely confirming or dismissing my suspiscions, I remain vigilant yet Agnostic. I always appreciate feedback, so I do thank you for yours.

0

I have email conversations with friends around the world on a range of ethical and moral issues - it is a great way to discuss philosophical differences and overlaps

That it is. Great to see ya have a community of friends willing and able to have those intriguing and important conversations with.

0

You are doing a good job, but if I do the same with my parents I am sure they will come to India and kill me lol

NR92 Level 6 June 19, 2019

I'm sorry to hear that

0

That's seems like the most reasonable manner with which to reopen those channels of communication. My mother had no idea that I had split up from my wife for two years until I told her. It wasn't that I was not telling her for any particular reason, I just didn't feel the need to tell her. Same thing when it comes to the religion topic. I have no reason to bring it up. It's how I believe that all subjects should be handled publicly. I don't care about a person's sexual preferences, or their political stance, or their religious stance. I don't care to know any of that. If it comes up, I don't shy away from it. I just don't bring it up. It isn't their business, just as theirs isn't mine. If they choose to share, so be it, I don't feel obligated to volunteer the information. I determine whether I like certain people based on their character, not any of that other crud. I've got enough of my own shit to worry about.

I'm way too curious (some might say nosy) to be able to stick to the same philosophy as yours. But it is definitely a potentially better way to gain and maintain relationships if you aren't focusing on the heavier or more polarizing topics.

0

I think it's total complete waste of time. Like with my devout Catholic mother--mind's made up. Nothing to talk about.

Why is it a waste of time to try to understand the beliefs and what not of someone who seems to want a better relationship with me? My only goal is for him to have some understanding of my position and beliefs, and me a better understanding of his. I have no expectation of converting him. He's been born again Christian for nearly 80-90% of his life, that isn't something I can ever hope to overcome.

@DaveBA5150 Well okay then sure. Why not?

0

If you must have this kind of discussion? Then emails are probably the best route to go. Hopefully, you can exchange views and points in cold blood and leave the subject alone when face to face.

Well I don't often see him face to face as I live in TX while he lives in Massachusetts with his wife, so that's not much of a problem. I see him, at most a couple times every year or 2 or 3

@DaveBA5150 Well emails should keep those 2 or 3 times pleasant so you can talk about things that really matter like sports.

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