What are your thoughts on the protests in Hawaii over construction of a new telescope on Mauna Loa? I'm torn because on one hand I'm a firm believer in advancing science, but I also believe in protecting indigenous rights. Why can't there be a compromise?
[cnn.com]
Go forward, Imua TMT, is my stance. I stand with the Kanaka for TMT, the majority. You don't see many of us in the majority speaking out, lest we be labeled as "racist" by those who do not care about going forward, only backward, what is the wisdom in that? To speak against the activists is seen as disrespectful to long gone superstitions.
Why not give the youth hope toward making a good living learning more about the origins of our universe, especially those descended from those mighty Polynesians from Tahiti, Marquesas and elsewhere who found Hawaii by navigating by the stars, to find a new land, a new frontier.
To me, the TMT would be a jewel in the crown upon Mauna Kea to get closer to the heavens than any other telescope in the world. What greater honor for a sacred mountain, than to get closer to the origins of our universe?
There is room for both science and culture to coexist. And it does, within those in the majority who see the TMT as a boon for the island and the state.
There are strong feelings on all sides of this, and a lot of misinformation, with the goal of sowing discord, like so many things in our country. Russia is likely chuckling pretty good about this and many other anti-science issues amplified on social media. It's really sad.
To me, this fight is necessary to demand respect and awareness for cultural sensitivity, of course, BUT to work together, not against.
Rejecting the project outright is going backward, not forward. The science will go on, whether in Hawaii or Spain. So, being "for science" isn't enough, but being for the science here in the USA, in Hawaii, atop a mountain revered by ancient navigators of the stars, seems appropriate to me. That is my feeling.
I'm not racist, I'm for uniting all of humanity in the search for knowledge for all of us here on this little rock we call Earth.
Well said.
I like the sailing metaphors searching stars by telescope like searching islands by sailing.....a similar poll was done to support the 100% racist NFL redSKINS logo/mascot team uniforms/helmets.....compounded by the NATIONAL CAPITOL city of conquered tribes I shall never validate genocide assimilation nor pipelines poisoning our graves and rivers....makes me never want to eat pineapple again.....the Vatican owns a private telescope observatory in Arizona....it's not for me to swim all the way to Hawaii for this struggle ....peace to you all
Science shouldn't be advanced at the expense of the powerless.
Against animal testing then?
@Gareth I am often impressed how effortlessly some people can equate humans with the rest of the animals. I am not sure however how commendable a trait that is....
I must confess I am a speiciest.....
I don't believe that religious arguments (whether indigenous or not) should ever trump scientific ones. Indigenous religion is still religion.
The problem is not the religion, is the territory and self determination.
You can make science in YOUR garden not on your neighbour's.
The territory should be theirs. They decide, you should argue, explain, convince, but never invade and force.
@zesty [learning.blogs.nytimes.com]
Yes it is US territory, conquered from the natives, happens that modern democratic civilized states now are recognizing the right of the populations to their lands, traditions, languages etc. It is something called human rights, they are above money transactions. For all purposes Hawaii was an occupied territory with the intention to expand military power over pacific. The local population never wanted to join the union.
Most of today western states are making efforts to recognized subjugated populations and integrate them as equals to the majority population.
From Norway with the Sami to Brazil with the remaining of natives. And some countries even making an effort to adopt the native culture as national symbols.
I can’t speak for America but by using that argument against Indigenous people in Australia you are missing the understanding that religion is a Western and Abrahamic idea.
@zesty I agree with you, i am not saying the contrary. What changed from the colonialism of 18 and 19 century is that now we as mankind started to respect minorities.
Before who has the biggest guns govern, now we try to respect the people and cultures at least inside our borders.
USA CAN by law or anything do this, the question is, should they mess more with native lands? Should modern countries strip more land and self determining rights from native populations? If you think yes, the big guns rule is still valid, good for you, my opinion is we as mankind need to stop killing minorities cultures. A lot of civilized countries like Norway for example is recognizing native minorities languages as official. Creating special pieces of land that are self regulating at least so those populations have something left.
We are not going back and giving back territory, we are just recognizing what is left and saying we won't go full genocide.
Remember that genocide is not just killing people, but making impossible for a culture to keep going (forceful assimilation) is inside the definition too.
@zesty who is them?
@zesty we pay who? What are you talking about?
@zesty LMAO you asked Pedro how he knew what the Hawaiians wanted 70 years ago and then you proceed to tell us what they want now. Doesn't make a lot of sense now does it?
@mooredolezal Well, I spent time there at a conference, talked with local scientists.
@zesty I was writing in regard to your statement that the people are happy to take welfare money. I don't think scientific opinion is really relevant in that regard.
@mooredolezal Not scientific opinion, but rather opinion of local scientists regarding the welfare system in Hawaii.
@zesty you crack me up. Why do you think the opinion of local scientists on Hawaii's welfare system is any more valid than anyone else's? Since when do scientists have expertise on a welfare system? The only one who can give a valid opinion on the intent of the indigenous people in regard to the welfare system are the indigenous people themselves. I find your comment nothing but a racist stereotype.
@mooredolezal The opinion of scientists is invalid? Interesting. BTW, racist stereotype, you forgot fascist!
@zesty my point was their opinion bears no more weight than anyone else's in areas outside of their expertise, so making them a source in regard to welfare commentary is nonsensical. I don't find fascism relevant but you know yourself better than I do. Insinuating that an indigenous group of people greedy and lazy, which is what you did by stating that they were happy to receive their welfare checks, is a racist stereotype. I don't know how to make it any more clear. When I find it necessary to repeat myself, it's time to end the discussion for me. I'm not going to spend my time giving you a daily response on this topic.
I have the same feeling. Maybe a piece of earth really isn’t sacred, but how to adjust to people who believe it is sacred to them? Maybe, they can find a way to have it both ways?
On this issue I'm going to side with science. It's not as though they want to deforestate an area of pristine wilderness or displace people from their homes, or even have a significant impact on the environment in any destructive way, they just want to build another observatory on top of a mountain peak. The only issue being raised is one of spiritual consideration.
In my view science beats spirituality.
A couple decades ago, my friends and I sought to see the the newly completed Keck Telescope. It was the first large scale application of active optics. At the Visitor Center, they told us they didn't conduct public tours, but we decided to go up anyway. At the top, we saw people skiing and sledding down the sparse fields of snow. When we got to the telescope, the parking lot was filled with cars, but the facility was locked. We thought we'd wait for a while, and then, people started streaming out, getting in their cars and leaving. In a matter of minutes, all the cars were gone except ours and another group of astronomy fans. Again, the facility was locked up tight. Again, we waited for a while. Then, a lone car came and parked. A man unlocked the door and the woman went in. The man spoke to the other visitors and motioned them to come in. They, in turn, waved us in. Seems the wife of the Director became sick on the way down and wanted to come back up to use the bathroom. So, while she recovered, we got a free, exclusive tour. It was magnificent... Techie orgasm!!
The crowd of people who left were the staff contractors and scientists and their families who were invited for a one-time open house. We we insanely lucky.
The vast majority of Hawaiian residents support the TMT. The scientists are not without heart nor respect for cultural practices. Most people who have strong opinions regarding the TMT have come to their conclusions thoughtfully and respectfully with hope for human harmony in the endeavor.
Here is a joint letter written recently by the directors of the other telescope observatories on Maunakea that begins:
"Aloha to our scientific colleagues around the world, On behalf of the more than 500 people employed by the Maunakea Observatories, we offer a perspective about the Maunakea situation with the sincere hope that our words encourage greater understanding of the complex circumstances in which we find ourselves. "
Read the full letter here:
Here's a you tube video that was made 2 years ago by one of the supporters of the TMT who is part Hawaiian. His take on the current situation isn't the only voice to be heard, for sure, but it's interesting to hear different perspectives.
@MissKathleen "Last October, a Honolulu Star-Advertiser poll of 800 registered voters found 77-percent supported the project, including 72 percent of Native Hawaiians."
Quoted from a news story today: [hawaiinewsnow.com]
Indigenous right should come first.
That's very close to nativism, and that can get ugly.
I would be ok IF Hawaii was not an invaded land.
Like, if USA want to take down mount Rushmore for example to make something else, it is their culture (religion is just culture with lasers) they are messing with.
But when talking about messing with other people's culture, then it is a problem.
Well technically the entire US is invaded land... A lot of people have a problem with My Rushmore too
So......
You would be OK with a Xtian group closing science.
It's not like you can just move a telescope.
Once, while driving along the saddle road that crosses the Big Island, we chanced to see the military firing rocket propelled phosphorus bombs from helicopters. Explosions generated giant white clouds of gas. Yeah, the military needs to practice, but the notion of polluting the Hawaiian landscape with toxic debris was offensive. I've never heard of any protests by the natives against the military operations that are ongoing, probably because they know they wouldn't get anywhere.
Still, if the natives had a concern about their sacred lands, the construction of a telescope is a tiny inconspicuous sliver beside all the other development that has gone on. The real question is: why the protesters zeroed in on this project versus all the rest of the development that has defaced the island. Until that is explained, the protesters seem like Luddite opportunists to me, and get zero credence.
@MissKathleen Your speaking of small groups. There are small groups that protest everything under the sun. The majority support the telescopes.
Theirs very little to “protect” up there. Telescopes have been on that mountain top for as far back as I can remember. What’s the fuss all about?
@MissKathleen Ya, I get that. I love the Big Island as much as anyone. That said, it’s way up on the top of a mountain that is little good for much else. I never heard a word of protest about any of the other telescopes. So now this just seems an odd battle to pick.
My thoughts. You may not like it.
Before I read the article I was undecided. Now that I know they have 13 other telescopes I am not. I say let them build the telescope only if they tear down one of the other sites and return it to a pristine condition. 13 fucking telescopes on one tiny island are enough. And I always side with science. Enough is enough.
It's already agreed they will dismantle 5 of the older telescopes. Those are the ones visible on top of Mauna Kea. The TMT would be set on a plain below the summit, not visible or distracting, from what I understand.
@Julie808 well then you know my answer! LOL
Find another place for the telescope.
Simple as that.
Then the $1million promised annually to Hawaii for STEM education and the hundreds of good paying jobs for Hawaii residents plus the income for the state over the years this project will generate, coupled with the credit for discoveries and knowledge of our cosmos gained by using the TMT will go to another country. (Canary Islands/Spain is the 2nd choice.) There are many reasons the majority of Hawaii residents and native people welcome the project.
Not that simple. There is a reason (Jesus Christ, look it up.), why telescopes are placed there.
Shouldn't the real land owners (the people who lived there first) get to decide what their terms are? It seems like we're approaching this backwards
Unfortunately, once someone is born in a place and raised there you can't say it isn't theirs because they don't have anywhere else.
@Gareth I don't think anyone lives on the actual site. It's the access to sacred lands
Having lived in Hawaii and seeing how they think, I believe this issue goes a lot deeper than not wanting the construction for indigenous rights reasons. The locals who live there are generally resentful of any project by what they consider outside influence on account of they are still angry that the US stole their sovereign rights.
Of course they are also broke as a state and more or less reliant on the rest of the US and the Navy and air force in particular for economic support. This creates a feedback loop where any project that isn't expected to bring in revenue is shunned. Although the construction of a telescope would progress science as a whole, it would do little to nothing to help Hawaii, so they use the indigenous rights card to justify no construction.
They have a lot of construction projects that are in limbo, wit slow or no progression that are drawing a lot of resources, such as a monorail that has been in development for over 20 years and not expected to be done for 20 or more, despite the original project to be completed in less than 10.
You wrote they use the indigenous rights.Who is they?
@mooredolezal "they" is referring to anyone who opposes the construction for any reason. Even those who have no skin in the game, in terms of deciding power, will tend to agree with "indigenous rights, therefore do not build" even though that makes no logical sense. So if your actual reason is "cost doesn't justify output" but you don't want to look poor, you choose a different reason that makes it look like someone else is getting hurt to make them angry and gain support.
@Happy_Killbot thanks
I'm not big on cemeteries and ceremonial burial grounds, so I don't care. It did dawn on me the other day as I saw them clearing land to expand a cemetery, it does provide a green space that would not be there otherwise, so that is a positive.
Mauna Kea is not green, it's a desolate rocky mountain, and very cold. It even snows up there sometimes. It's my understanding that if/when they find unmarked burial sites, they are treated with cultural reverence and handled in a respectful manner.
It is also my understanding that there have been dishonest tricks played by activists who actually transported bones from another site to Mauna Kea in an effort stop the project. It's hard to take some of the actions seriously, when even found offensive by some in the same group. There is a lot of questionable action on all sides and I try to weigh each story fairly, giving more weight to honesty.
Why keep compromising and losing on the victims side ? "Science" is not some blameless graduate student promising to advance knowledge for all humanity ???? Most scientists are University/government employees paid far more than Native Hawaiians to dance for tourists or drive tractors through pineapple fields....I am Cherokee and genocidal whites have reduced the number of tribes from 1800 to 400 and most of them are like me not knowing a single word of our mother tongue....science is just another assimilationist tool delaying if not denying full reparations for stolen land and murdered forebears....not to mention rapes poison pipelines and destruction of habitat with natural foods
But science can benefit all of humankind. The compromise I'm thinking of is clean up the telescope sites that are no longer in use and allow the Hawaiians use of their sacred sites. A telescope is nothing like a pipeline that can leak and destroy the environment.
@Remi if there are old telescope sites to be improved then fine your point is well taken but it sounds like the proposed new site will be rammed down the throats of Hawaiians
superstitious bull shit. At 13,803 feet, there are very few, if any native Hawains who have ever gone to the summit and seen any of the telescopes. It is the idea of something up there that bothers them. If no one had told them, they would not have known.
Take superstition out of the argument and see what you've got left. If there were good environmental grounds for protesting then they deserve to be considered. Because something is 'sacred' is not an argument. Anything can be sacred to somebody. I could say that science is sacred to me and understanding the universe is vital to finding my spiritual place within it. The modern world has done many wrongs to native people, but opening the book of reason and science to them is not one of them. I've no respect for mumbo-jumbo. Come up with a decent argument or go home.