You are right. And of course, let us not fall into false dichotomies: there is good in solitude and there is good in company. And both require effort from our part.

I really like it ! And you're right. For me the choice came with maturity. When I was younger, I could allow a person in my life just because this person was nice. It wasn't enough to make it work, obviously. Now I'm waiting for a certain type of person, and it actually means being alone because it's rare. But the frustrations of loneliness are nothing compared to the ones of an unfulfilling relashionship.

@Nathalie_Quebec Which is why I always say "I'd rather be alone than wish I were"

@TheoryNumber3 today I saw something else from Carl Sagan...it was really inspiring. I definitely should check his writings.

@Nathalie_Quebec Insignificant Blue Dot. Or something close to that title is a very good one.

Ok, let’s see. We are born from someone else. And we have, in most cases, the possibility of giving birth to another being. Right there, we know of the existence is someone other than us alone. So, wouldn’t it be more appropriate to say that we are not alone but that we can live independently of others? With the obvious exception of the time when we were infants and depended of the help of another to survive. Hmmm, somehow this “alone” thing is being chipped away...

Interesting. Now everyone has themselves. Even the elderly living alone or in hospices. Why do they suffer of loneliness, if they have themselves ? Why do certain people drown in depression because they are always alone ? Being autosufficient is wonderful, but it's not given to everyone.

@Nathalie_Quebec Agreed. But if you do not start with self-love and respect, you aren't going to get it elsewhere. Yes, some have more than others, and it is not always easy.

@Mitch07102 you see, this is a very commun comment, the self-love and respect first. It's almost universal. I'm doing pretty good on those, it might even be the reason why I'm alone Lol. But we have to admit that even for those who have progressed to this point, meaningful friendships will not come right away like magic ! Some personality types are rarer than others and it takes a lot of patience. Nothing's as simple as it seems.

You are right. It is called “Denial” and Freud recognized it as a defense mechanism.

Here is why i think that is probably not the real reality.
When I was young I heard things that were beyond my comprehension. I tried to learn them but it took time. As I grew older I became more capable of understanding these concepts. But if it was all in my mind to begin with. How did I imagine these concepts before I had the mental capacity and then later on learn them and understand them. There are of course convoluted ways to get around this, but it just seems more likely we all are real.

All of what appears to be shared reality could have been created moments ago. We can not disprove such.
So, might the view of reality be a genetic pass down? That there is only one real people and all others merely "exist" to provide depth and width to the perception?

You see, to me, this kind of thinking is not appealing. It's close to religion and it's part of fooling ourselves in comforting beliefs that lead nowhere.

I had a friend that was a solipsist. He believed we all existed only in his thoughts. He unfortunately died some days ago, and also unfortunately, I am now unable to let him know he was wrong. ‍

By the same token, we know very well that all the viruses and bacteria that can make us sick, are real!! And they live their real lives unencumbered by thoughts of existentialism or loneliness.

Hey, just become a solopsist and think your coffee into existence every morning!!
Hmmm... into existence... hmmm...
Don’t worry, coffee is included.

It's kind of funny...everyone who commented didn't pay any attention to the second part of the quote, which I think is the most interesting : fooling ourselves. I'll be honest with you : I was high on weed when I read it and felt inspired Lol. I'm usually a critical mind who doesn't believe everything I read. We live in a society that fool itself a lot to make things more bearable. Life after death, guardian angels, " they don't deserve me"...etc.

@Nathalie_Quebec I don't know how many times I have thought "I wish I could believe in bullsh*t", but I just can't...

How about: star dust morph into consciousness.

@OwlInASack
They are real, and we are not alone.

@OwlInASack It is perception! The perception of the reality that surrounds you.

@OwlInASack I don’t believe there is any difference. They are manifestations of the same thing. Our lived reality is what surrounds us, whereas perception is what our senses tell our brain about that reality. In reality, the energy of the sun hits our skin and our sense of touch perceives that as heat and sends such signal to the brain. We are also constantly hit by neutrinos, but our senses do not have the capability to perceive them. Our senses cannot tell the brain anything about neutrinos. For that we use reason.

See the answer I gave to josh_is_exciting.
I'll tell you the context : recently I met the family of my son's fiancee. They are catholic, the type who goes to church every week and post religious stuff on Facebook. It was quite a shock for me. I assisted to the christening of the baby, and one more time found all this absurd. All of us here, atheists and agnostics, are enjoying our mental freedom so we like being " alone" without gods. But in the same time there was something special about this family. Like if they were more happy and fulfilled. They are convinced that if they pray for something, everything will be allright. Don't get me wrong : I'm not tempted even a tiny bit, but as the quote says, it SEEMS that they have it better.

@Nathalie_Quebec
Ah, that changes everything.

"Alone : no god or spiritual entity supposed to take care of you and answer your questions." -- Most is us here are fine with this definition, I am sure.

Now about being happy. As you know, "happiness" is a state of mind. I have seen and met people in most humble conditions in rural areas in 6 countries (I traveled to in the last 3 years) who seemed happy and content to me. I have elementary school friends in a very rural place where I grew up, they still live there, raised their families and have now retired. I thought... they looked happier than I think of myself.as. The modern materialistic world will remind you every day what you do not have (through TV, magazines, media and talks among friends and others).

All people have a desire to be happy and connect to people, places, hobbies and preferences in life that they think would make them happy. Your example of the religious people who chose to do things of their likes and seemed content. At least they figured what made them happy and are pursuing it. Many continue chasing the oasis of a dream they never reach in life.

...are 2 different things ?

@Nathalie_Quebec Absolutely... Some people may want to be alone but no one wants to be lonely...... Why do I know that?

Technically yes. But you can be alone in a room full of people. I've seen couples in restaurants not telling a single word to each other. They were alone.

@Nathalie_Quebec not really, because you were there observing with some degree of concern. Ergo, they were never alone.

Nice.

Do you mean to say that I am an illusion reading you saying that you are an illusion and that there are many here, who are illusion themselves, and are reading me, an illusion, reading you, another ilusión? I think that at some point we need to pay attention and accept the evidence. What do you all, presumed illusions think?

@Rodatheist What I mean is that the sense of being a separate, unique person as a body might be an illusion. The idea is not all that far-fetched. With the mental condition once called multiple personality disorder various personalities are exhibited by a single body. No one of the personalities is the correct one—they are all illusions. Remember too that our sense of self is dependent on memory, and memory is pretty unreliable. Lose your memory and you are gone in a flash.

In the entire chain of organisms why would “I” be any particular one. No, “I” am the observer, watching and sometimes tending the entire procession. The individual organisms are nothing but robotic instruments. Robots can be programmed to interact together—send each other messages, etc.

@WilliamFleming Ok wait. I believe that the theory that formulates that, thinking that we are separate unique individuals is an illusion, can be reasonably discussed. However, I believe the use of the multiple personality disorder as an argument to say that personalities are illusions, wanting to conclude, I assume, that the concept of personality is an illusion, is not a good one, and I will explain why. You are right to say that the condition was once called multiple personality disorder. It is no longer called that because it really does not have anything to do with personality. The DSM-V now calls it Dissociative Identity Disorder because it is an extreme self protecting strategy against extreme painful experiences (thing being the object of ritual torcher and abuse by a cult, from age 3 to age 5, suffering all kinds of hits, burns, cuts and invasion of the body, being kept in a filthy box and only being taken out to be fed and be used again). In such situation, the brain disconnects from the painful reality (dissociates) and eventually different identities are developed by the individual to deal with all the painful memories and their sequelae. So, dissociative disorder is an example of a very resilient brain that refuses to live life suffering. In any case, the bottom line is that this condition in no way can be an illustration of the illusionary nature of personality. Now, how about Alzheimer’s disease, a condition that allows us to witness the deterioration and gradual disappearance of the personality (memories being the most noticeable aspect of such deterioration), due to the gradual loss of function of the brain. So, we, the individual, the person, the feeling thinking being, is a product of that very real bundle of neuronal tissues. The brain is real. The brain recognizing itself as an existing individual identity as real. You say that if we loose our memories we are gone. How can we be gone if we were never here? To be gone requires to be here first.
Your question of “why would I be any particular [organism in a chain]” can be framed in a way akin to the proverbial glass half full/empty; i.e. there is a chain of organisms, and I am one of them, and I am one of the few of them that can ponder my own existence.
So, is there another argument for the illusionary nature of the separate and unique person?

@Rodatheist The allusion to Dissociative Identity Disorder is not absolute proof but just an illustration to show how identity as a body could be illusional. It’s hard to prove anything about our cognition using our cognition. Whatever prompted the new personalities to appear is not important to the illustration. The point is that the sense of self as a body can be an illusion.

A person with Alzheimer’s disease is a perfect example of the illusional nature of personality. Their memory disappears and the sense of self gradually follows, leaving consciousness, which I maintain is primary. In no way is it demonstrated that conscious awareness is produced by the brain.

How can we be gone if we were never here you ask? How can John Wayne be gone from my television screen if he was never in my television to begin with? Because his being there was an illusion and the illusion goes away when I change the channel.

Yes, there are other arguments that point toward universal consciousness, but if you are waiting for “proof” you might wait a very long time. Here’s a quote from Huffington Post:

“Lest the idea of a unitary, group, or universal mind be dismissed as new-age woo-woo, we should note that some of the most distinguished scientists of the 20th century have endorsed this perspective. The renowned physicist David Bohm said, "Each person enfolds something of the spirit of the other in his consciousness. Deep down the consciousness of mankind is one. This is a virtual certainty... and if we don't see this it's because we are blinding ourselves to it." Anthropologist and psychologist Gregory Bateson: "The individual mind is immanent but not only in the body. It is immanent also in the pathways and messages outside the body; and there is a larger Mind of which the individual mind is only a sub-system..." Physicist Henry Margenau: "There is a physical reality that is in essence the same for all... [This] oneness of the all implies the universality of mind... If my conclusions are correct, each individual is part of God or part of the Universal Mind." Nobel physicist Erwin Schrodinger also believed that minds are united and one. He said, "To divide or multiply consciousness is something meaningless. There is obviously only one alternative, namely the unification of minds or consciousness... [I]n truth there is only one mind." [huffpost.com]

If you are interested in the subject I suggest researching with an open mind.

@WilliamFleming Let us not talk about open or close mindedness because in doing so we are shifting the focus from the message to the messenger. I think we should focus on the message. Here the message is a set of arguments in favor or against the idea that “the sense of being a separate personal identity as a unique body is nothing but illusion”.
You were the one who, after presenting that idea, spoke about multiple personalities saying that “none of the personalities is the correct one - they all are illusions”. Well, first of all, that assertion in itself is incorrect because, as I explained, the identities are the “correct way” in which a brain deals with extreme pain and suffering. I don’t know why you dismiss the origin of the identities since it is precisely because the independent person exists surrounded by pain, that other identities are created as coping mechanism as of the individual person. Then you dismiss your own argument and say that it is only an illustration, and repeat that “it is possible” that our sense of being separate and unique is an illusion. Well, everything is possible, but you have to present arguments to try to convince others.
Then I explained how the very personality, the essence of the self, goes away with the deterioration of the brain, and yet you asserted, without offering any argument, that in no way it is demonstrated that conscious awareness is produced by the brain? And you take yet another step and, without any good argument, propose that when memory and the self go away, what remain is consciousness? No wonder you believe in a collective consciousness outside our bodies; it is akin to a Cristian insisting that there is a god, but present no proof of it. (and the burden of the proof is always on the proponent).
Then you present the hufpost article. Oh me oh my...
Either the writer of the hufpost is very inept at presenting the ideas of others, or those great thinkers are not so much. The hufpost article shows that these thinkers have an opinion, but I did not read any argument at all. Did you? Can you point it out?
So, I feel very confident, so far, that I am one of those that dismiss the idea of a universal mind as a new age woo woo, like the article says, mostly because it sound a lot like magical thinking, just like the idea of the existence of a god. I would be very interested in the idea of a universal mind, if it was presented with good and valid arguments.

@Rodatheist “Well, everything is possible, but you have to present arguments to try to convince others.”

No, I do not have to present any arguments. We are not in a courtroom and you are not sitting on a jury.

As I said, if you are interested in the subject it is up to you to search for truth and understanding. Given that your mind is totally made up and cast in iron, I guess that’s not going to happen—it’s none of my business anyway.

If you are so confident as to declare the ideas of such eminent physicists as Planck, Wheeler, Bohm, et. al. as “woo”, then the discussion is over.

@WilliamFleming Well, I think you have successfully proven that I am closed minded, and you did it without presenting any proof of it!! But, never mind my mind (so to speak), what I present are arguments.
And, by the way, this is a court. Is a court of public opinion of a particular type of individuals that put a premium on reason and good arguments. Arguments are not just for court rooms or for juries..