Any German could easily justify Hitler with that type of comment.

@Archeus_Lore You and I use words like "fiance" because nearly 1,000 years ago William of Normandy invaded England. Any moral judgments of him, his personal life or reasons would seem rather superfluous now.
And no, you cannot say that the world was better off for having Hitler in it

Don't talk about Churchill to any Aussies who fought at Gallipoli or had relatives who fought there my friend.
The whole Gallipoli campaign (SLAUGHTER) was his idea and so the blood from the Anzac soldiers who died there will ALWAYS be on his hands.

The 'beloved' Pommie Hero, Churchill also wanted to abandon Australia to the Japanese in W.W.II simply because HE wanted OUR soldiers to FIGHT ONLY on the European and African Fronts and the lands that were more lucrative to England and Australian Prime Minister, Pig-Iron Bob, Menzies was in total agreement with Churchill. Luckily, Menzies got outed, we got a TRUE Aussie Prime Minister who stood up and told Churchill NO.

@273kelvin Yes I can say it, if I want to, and who are you to stop me? But more pointedly, I did not infer that I myself would use such an argument, I inferred that "any German" could. The harshness of the Treaty of Versallies would be more than enough for many of Hitler's contemporaries to justify everything he did, without hesitation, all based off of the German recovery and punishment of those who presided over the enforcement of the Treaty of Versallies. In fact, many of the German survivors of World War II still held Hitler in just as high regard as some Englishmen hold for Churchhill. One-sided views limit one's scope of understanding.

@Triphid Ah yes the Gallipoli myth. If you look a little closer at the history of it without prejudice. You will discover that Churchill wanted it to be a naval campaign only. (He was 1st sea lord at the time) It was Churchills bitter rival lord Kitchener that pushed for its expansion into a land battle. However, Kitchener died at sea (strange irony there) and they could not make a scapegoat out of a dead hero so Churchill took the fall. He may have been responsible for many dreadful things but I think that that was not one of them.

@273kelvin Churchill was told repeatedly that the Gallipoli Campaign ( Slaughter) was a terrible idea both from the Land Invasion and from the Sea perspective as well.
An Australian submarine, yes we had them during WWI btw, was sunk in the Straits near Gallipoli BECAUSE Churchill sent it in there and REFUSED to send Minesweepers in first, the entire crew was lost with the submarine, so add that to the list of Anzacs SLAUGHTERED at Gallipoli and blatant Pommie arrogance and mis-management.
Btw, the Gallipoli Slaughter IS NOT a 'Myth' it IS a 100% dyed in the wool FACT just as the slaughter of countless Anzacs used as cannon fodder by the Poms during WWI in Europe and even as many during WWII in Europe, Africa and S.E. Asia as well.
I lost 5, count them FIVE, relatives from BOTH sides of my family at Gallipoli and NONE were killed by Turkish fire, they died from disease preventable by the Poms IF they gave them adequate nutrition and clothing.
I had 2 Uncles who fought in WWII, ONE was a Rat Of Tobruk, the other fought first in New Guinea on the Kokoda Track and then through the islands, neither ever had a good word to say about the Pommie Army, etc,

@OwlInASack Did I say that? You are putting words in my mouth. Does not seem likely you read the posts before my last either. "Any German could easily justify Hitler with that type of comment." "I did not infer that I myself would use such an argument, I inferred that 'any German' could." "One-sided views limit one's scope of understanding." So does not reading the whole thread.

There is nothing wrong with using "old" expressions, in fact, you just used one yourself, and I could call that a "line". This is a feeble attempt to paint what I said with negative connotation. Obviously, it failed, because you used the very same type of expression yourself. Laughable attempt . . . . . you would have been much more respected had you admitted that it was clearly and unambiguously an attempt to put words in my mouth . . .
.
"The harshness of Versailles would justify the holocaust?" Tell me, where exactly did I mention the holocaust before? The fact is, I didn't, you brought it up, and attempted to tie it in with what I said. It is an assumption that I have a certain opinion about something that I never mentioned, and, you know what they say about assumptions, how's that for another old expression?

@Triphid I apologize if I gave the impression that the whole debacle was a myth. What I obviously meant was that it could be all laid at Churchills's feet. Subsequently released archives have cast new light on the affair.

@Triphid, @OwlInASack Btw my father was a submariner in WW2 in the Indian ocean. He had nothing but praise to say about the Australians but less than enthusiastic in regard to the yanks.

@273kelvin The Aussie soldiers had a name for the Yank troops, they called them "Overs" because they were Over-paid, Overfed. Oversexed and Over Here.

@Triphid Same here

@273kelvin They also coined another, less kindly, name for the Yanks, which still is in use here today at times, Seppos = Septic Tanks which rhymes with Yanks and as with Septic Tanks nothing good ever comes out them.
Though having said that I must say that I have quite a few very decent and good American friends on this site, so to them I apologise and say that we relies that NOT all Yanks fit that description.

@Triphid Although obviously not an American. My dad may have fallen into the over-sexed and over here category.
Near the end of the war (post VE), it was decided that the British and US fleets would combine operations in the Indian ocean. Dad was a radio operator and the Brits banged out morse code using the old fashioned method. Whereas the yanks typed theirs out as it was faster. Consequently, he was sent to Perth along with a dozen others to learn how to type in the Australian equivalent of the Pitman school. They were billeted in an old rope works with hammocks strung up. Can you imagine a dozen jolly jack tars in a secretarial school? He said to me "Son if I said that I spent one night in that rope works? I would be lying"

@273kelvin Yes, and like most 'visiting' troops they 'plowed the furrow, planted the seed and then went on their merry way' with little or no though as to what the resultant 'crop' would yield.

@Triphid Well there was a war on.
I love Spike Milligan's take on it. "The war was a great time for ugly people. You would get some guy that looked like a greek adonis lusting after a fat smelly NAFFE girl with a mustache and waxing lyrical as is she as Venus de Milo. Because she was the only woman around for miles"

mother theresa, the butcher bitch of Calcutta yet another the 'saints' made by the Catholic Church who were, in reality, true mongrel Bastards of the First Order.

Do you know much about the civil rights subject? I ask because it is going to be part of my studies shortly and I'd love to find out what Americans have on the subject.

@Sofabeast I guess I'm more knowledagable about civil rights for blacks in our country than I am on the women's movement, sad to say. Read about Frederick Douglass by David Blight (won a Pulitzer prize) Also Douglass wrote his autobiography, more than one in fact. Other good books are Separate by Stephen Luxemberg, and Stony the Road by Henry Louis Gates which deal with Reconstruction after the Civil War. Another great one coming into more modern times is The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein

@AmelieMatisse Thank you for that, we will be reading civil rights - mostly for black civil rights from 1945-1992, but a wee bit of feminism too. I'll try to find out if those books are available over here. Very interesting at the moment that we are also covering US politics - thanks to Brexit (we are meant to be doing the EU and the result of Brexit, but we have not left yet)

@Sofabeast good luck in your country too! You also have a mess on your hands

This definitely will be on my reading list. Thank you.

Thanks for recommending this. I’ve added it to my Amazon cart.

@enchanter Thanks for the recommendation

@AmelieMatisse You're welcome!

@AmelieMatisse, @Gypsy494 You're welcome!

@Donotbelieve

@Cast1es that for sure is a true statement!

True that.

I met a girl called Pam who told me horrible stories about her ex. About the same time or just a little later I met a guy called Paul. It took me a year to link the two people into one.
PS. I now have nothing to do with Pam b/c as you may have guessed she is a lying narcissist.

In my school we were taught all about Edison and what a magnificent man he was, and not once was tesla mentioned. I didn't even know of tesla until I was an adult, nor of Edison's cruelty and scheming. It was shocking. That's when I started looking into some other "historical heroes" and learning truth. That no one is what our history says they are.

Even Ghandi was a jerk.

@LadyAlyxandrea Martin Luther Kings wife used to walk into a lot of doors

DAMN!! I really did not know Churchill was so cruel and frankly quite ignorant. I realize he was a product of his up bring and early beliefs, still no excuse.

While I am not disavowing the article, I will suggest we take a breath before biting off on the written word. I have personal experience with renderings on podcasts and TV, as well as in articles and books that were by and large complete falsehoods yet the general public consumed them as absolute truth. Even if parcels were true, facts were intentionally laid aside which tainted what was actually true.

History is written by winners, losers, and usually by people who didn't have a horse in that race.

@GarytheGondolier I was talking about REAL History here and REAL History IS always written by the Winners.
For example, Did the Incas get to write their side of the Spanish Conquistador Invasion/Slaughter?
How about the Native American Indians then, ever read anything telling THEIR side of the Genocide committed against them by the Non-Indigenous Americans?
No IS the answer to both examples BECAUSE they were the losers, well except for when the Sioux Nations kicked Custer's arse firmly and squarely up between his ears NUT then WHITE American History always has painted them as the Bad Guys and Custer, who attacked a peaceful village full of old people, women and children early in the piece, is painted as the Hero.

Edison, ghandi, columbus...those were my first three "heroes of history" that turned out to be jerks.