@creative51 Thus far I've been able to fight the urge.

@CommonHuman Yeah, and suits, bicycles and badge that read " Elder" are bloody expensive aren't they?
Plus there are at least 1,000 better things one can do on any Saturday morning aren't there.

@CommonHuman Urge to what?

@creative51 Yes

You really find out just who your "friends" are when you approve of the orange anus being impeached don't you? LOL

@Redheadedgammy.....with the philisophy that every one should have the right to their stupidity....I have learned to not take things personally...

An excellent response. This open-ended question is intended to take you down the rabbit hole of evangelism.

Clever original reply !

@YaAtEeh well...its difficult to lead someone thats been down the road and back, and she grew up with me....should have know better.....must have been feeling a lack of "testifying" that day

@ @Mcflewster thank you

Exactly what I was going to say. IMHO, that's the best way.

It has been my impression is that the message of gnosticism is similar to that of the Buddhist nlightenment. That few people people are able to nature their awareness and remove obstacles to understand their connection to the world. It is difficult to build. institution around this idea, so the gnostic perspective its dismissed as heresy.

@YaAtEeh My favorite thing to tell the spiritual folk is that the universe just wants you to love it, but you just want to think its something its not.

I get a lot of confused responses.

Could "Reason and Logic" not be a message in itself [with examples of solutions that are not possible with religion]?

@Mcflewster Yes, reason and logic would be a great message if the funnymentalists would listen to reason and logic. Like KKGator said, "I don't suffer fools gladly, like ever."

@Mcflewster The only thing I intend to do is lead by example. It's the only thing that makes sense to me now. To me, that consists of me just living my life, as I see fit.

If asked, I'll tear religion apart. I used to go out of my way to do that.
I don't anymore. It has proved to be a complete waste of my time.
I've had a few friends start questioning, and they've come to me for
my perspective. That's when I give them chapter and verse about
what a scam ALL religion is.

@KKGator I believe your idea to lead by example is the best way to show others who we are. I have found you can surprise people by simply being kind. Like a few months ago, a woman checking out at the grocery store didn't have enough money and started removing items, and I asked the cashier how much she was short. It was like 12 dollars and change. I said, I'll cover it. I'm not rich by any means but 12 bucks and change wasn't going to break me. The woman finished her transaction and I then got my stuff and noticed she was waiting by the exit door. She stated saying "Bless you, and bless god for sending you to help me". I simply told her, I didn't need a god to do something kind for someone else. She asked if I was christian, I said no, I'm an atheist. She was surprised to say the least. She thanked me again and walked off saying to her friend, I can't believe it, I just can't believe it. I hope I helped her to think and not judge others.

@Mcflewster It is my view that logic and reason provide an avenue to share understanding. Beliefs are either held or compelled. As for myself, I focus on being aware of my beliefs, but not attempt to compel others to hold those same beliefs. For subjects that lend themselves to logic and reason, then I proceed, if invited. I believe it is a person's lifelong project to bring their beliefs and their world together for themselves.

@Redheadedgammy I KNEW I liked you!!!!

I also understand exactly the point you made. I can't tell you how many times I've been told, "..but you're so NICE! How can YOU be an atheist?"

Atheists and agnostics have been so demonized (I know, pun again. 2nd time today.), and maligned.
People are usually so surprised to learn that atheists and agnostics are more like "christians" are SUPPOSED to be than most christians are.

@KKGator Ditto KKGator. I've learned so much from your comments and posts, and find myself looking for posts by you and a few other people that speak truth to power. I too have had the comment "but you're so nice, how can you be an atheist?" thrown at me. One person even said "but you seem more like a good christian." I laughed and said, maybe more christians need to act more like an atheist. I just got a smile back. Lol

@YaAtEeh I am not advocating compulsion.

@KKGator Please keep trying to talk to other religions , but doing it nicely(?)

@Redheadedgammy But it would be a real prize if you succeeded in getting them to listen by whatever means.

@Mcflewster No.

@KKGator Agreed to disagree.

Exactly! I loathe the idea of missionaries of ANY belief (or non-belief).

@Holysocks Who said anything about preaching. There are lots of ways of getting message out.

You seem a very tolerant person but why should we tolerate religion when we do think it does harm.

Agree but there must be quicker methods that do not involve knocking on doors and yet are still acceptable to us and involve no pressure.

@Mcflewster No one had to tell me about being agnostic or atheist. This is what differentiate us from the religious sheeple. One cannot be converted to agnotism or atheism. It's self awareness. If someone cannot question the belief in a supernatural unseen deity, and research, and learn, and come up with a logical conclusion by himself or herself, than no message will resonate with them.

@noworry28 "Sheeple" LMAO! Made my day.

That is a good question but I am at leasts agnostic as you are. If we are to eliminate religion we need to steal some of the best techniques FROM the religions. After all proselytising is only the same as salesmanship.

@Mcflewster Then that makes you no better than them. You shouldn't be trying to convert people... Only get them to think for themselves! That is not a sales process!

@RiverRick Sorry but any change needs "selling" even if it involves no money. That's just the way we are. Religious people are NOT going to accept logic and reason.

Oh, I don't hide a thing about my non- belief. I just don't Ferrell the meted to harp on it like christians do.

I would go further and say " I am not going to do anything or believe anything I am told [policepersons excepted] unless I can think it through with reason and/or logic.

@Mcflewster Well it's not my mission in life to explain myself to everyone as of why I do what I do.

@IamNobody Fair enough. I like to think that you occasionally do.

@Mcflewster Of course, we all do. I try not to though, which by your implied logic, this response must be the exception to the rule.

This is good. We are getting somewhere. Have you any stories about its successful use?

@Mcflewster Yes. As an agnostic, I have had numerous (more than I can count) encounters where I embraced and accepted those whom I would have simply just prayed for as a Christian, but would have never allowed for a true enriching friendship. The post Christian embracing has brought me so much fulfillment and joy. That is my successful use of my agnostic message.

@Truthseeker1968 It gets even better.

@Mcflewster Exactly. As a decades old agnostic I can attest that that feeling never dies and continues to grow. Its tragic how much time I wish I had back that I afforded to my Christian walk.

That is NOT the "christian message" I've always gotten.
More like, they will know us by our stubborn and irrational refusal to accept ANYTHING that runs counter to our fictional "holy" book, and our history of persecuting (including murder) anyone who we feel isn't as good as we are.
There is NO "love" in the christian message. None. Just blind obedience.

@KKGator Thus "Except that we really mean that shit. Its not a mask we wear to the masquerade party that is Christianity."

@Truthseeker1968 Most "christians", aren't.
If Jesus had been real, and met any of these assholes, he'd have made sure they'd been smote.

These are very good but I would prefer never to mention god. I was in a Humanist group that used " Faith in Humanity" as a strap-line.

@Mcflewster

"Focus on being a good human being. Focus on humanity."

@St-Sinner ...or better human being ?? .. we can all improve.

@Mcflewster

No, most think they are good human beings but don't know they are not. There is a lot of work to be just a good, kind, compassionate, emphatic, sharing, free thinking, unbiased human being.

Being better is an advanced stage. It can apply to people like Dalai Llama who has spent his life in spreading the message of peace and meditation.

@St-Sinner Maybe these two paragraphs only apply to some people in America but I am not sure about that or whether it applies in the UK also.

@Mcflewster

It should apply to grown up human beings. I thought the UK is more progressive and less religious than the US.

Subtel!

This is good. Could it have been briefer?

@Mcflewster Oh yes indeed. I could have wordlessly pointed to the No Soliciting sign in 2-inch letters beside my door. It just all depends on how "charitable" I'm feeling at the time. Last year I invited a couple of young Mormon boys in and spent some time telling them about Zen meditation.

"live and let live" is good. Living in ignorance is bad.

@Mcflewster of course, but it's not up to me to teach people who won't listen. Useless waste of time to accomlish zilch.

@Mofo1953 And you have tried how many times? Genuine seeking info only.

@Mcflewster several times when directly confronted, but they do not listen to reason or open their eyes to evidence. It is a waste of time and an exercise in futility.

@Mofo1953 We can all do some little thing if only to brag how less worried we have been.

@Mcflewster Brag? Whom to?

@Mofo1953 Studies have shown that religious people live longer because they are more sure of their beliefs. Brag to anyone.

@Mcflewster i saw the Ohio state study, you are reporting falsely that the reason is because they are more sure of their beliefs, that is not what the study says. The study says that it is tied to less drinking, more socializing and volunteering. And it is only 4 years difference, coming from the analysis of 1000 obituaries. But I would say that sampling is flawed. Many obituaries are embellished by the family whom have been known to declare religious belief to atheists, I do not trust the method of data gathering because obituaries are not necessarily true and thus invalid to any statistician.

@Mofo1953 I am not qualified to analyse any of the reasons but there seems to be multiple studies, but you obviously understand the difficulties of interpretation

Would dispute your second paragraph but the rest is very good.

Do you not mean "Everyone is born an agnostic"?. There are some religious people who are half way towards us.

I would prefer to think that you are an information giver and that any trouble is due to the person you encountered.

Glad you are so sure.

@creative51 I think there is a more nuanced way o looking at this. The Old Testament is full of Stories that pertain to how the formation of civilizations adapted to climactic change and a collision of cultures into the first multinational world. I think there is value to gaining that perspective a our modern world progresses to further atmomization an alienation. The New Testament is a reset for a word that had devolved into inter-empire warfare. See the Bible as an anthropological/historical document and it gains some value. I give ou that over the six millennia that it has existed, that it has been coopted by the sear power who financed its translation. It is stimulating to try to dig out the hidden meanings. I have been integrating my Biblical reading with archeological and geological studies. To dismiss the Bible outright is to miss out on possible insights, I feel.

Getting back to roots is a very important occupation. Messages are often open to interpretation. What is YOUR interpretation of DSSs?

Some good points there giving you good feelings. I agree preaching any message must be stopped and no sermons. No you do have to be determined to give a message gently and often.