That being said. Not everything Isreal has done has been defensive. They have innacted an array of crimes of aggression & was (many that the US has been implicit in) that we should not attempt to justify within our own morality.

Too bad for them.
War sucks and innocent people pay the price for what their "leaders"
choose to do.
I'm so sick of the victim mentality of so many people in the South.
The war is over, the Confederacy lost.
The whining must stop.

Poor Southerners treated black people like garbage, too.
WTF should anyone feel sorry for them?

Oh, and all those "ruins" you are lamenting?
So what? Again war sucks. Damage happens.
They could have rebuilt all that stuff, and in most cases, they did.
Additionally, when black people were demanding their Constitutional
rights, instead of acknowledging that they were due their civil rights,
they erected monuments to the "glorious dead".
That was done specifically to remind blacks that they were slaves once,
and not to get "uppity".

There isn't a white Southerner alive today who deserves an apology from
anyone, for anything.

They knew they were fighting for the right to keep black people slaves. There was no ambiguity on that matter at all. This disgusting attempt to romanticize traitors is the same kind of BS that perpetuated racism in this country for over 150 years after that bitter war was fought. The idea that there was some way to normalize a society that wanted to keep slaves and would fight and die for the right to do so.

Spare me.

@redbai Those who seem to believe that, somehow, white people in the South were "victims" of the Civil War, are simply trying to deflect and justify their still rampant racism.
White nationalism is insidious.
They spew their bullshit in an effort to make their irrational beliefs seem
palpable.
Well, here's one old Southern white woman who is calling BULLSHIT.

White men need to stop their incessant whining.
They're becoming a minority and it scares the shit out of them.
To which I say, GOOD!
Turnabout is fair play, motherfuckers!

@KKGator Look, that's not what I am doing. I am not romanticizing or excusing anything. My morals on war are consistent rather it's over the invasion of Iraq under false pretenses despite the injustices towards the Kurdish people; or rather it be the invasion & robbing of Mexican territory despite it being 180 years ago.

To hold an entire peoples responsible under a blanket of implication to the state wouldn't seem much dissimilar to me than implicating those pine nut farmers in Afghanistan for the culture in their state; or to implicate each individual soldier or you as a US citizen (assuming) for the entirety of the crimes of mass genocide that this country has been acting out in the middle east for decades with numbers of lives beginning to rival that of Hitler.
& believe it or not, that is not hyperbole.

So no, I am afraid I can never just shrug it off with a "So what, war sucks, innocent people pay, damage happens."

@gNappyHead Do try to stick with the topic
It was Southern stubbornness and hurt feelings.

@KKGator The tragedy of war is the topic. & my heart bleeds for the lives lost in the south. As it does for all conflict, but where I live I just so happen to be able to see the remnants of this particular one & they are abundant. That is my only message. I'm not asking for an apology. That would be ridiculous. But I also won't apologise for how I feel.

@gNappyHead Nobody is asking you to apologize for how you feel. They are reacting to the insulting idea that southern traitors are somehow suffering and that the war they started is something the deserve sympathy for because it's somehow not their fault they were traitors. Your ridiculous comments totally ignore that those people did it all to own slaves. They nearly destroyed the country so that they could own people. Then for generations after that they treated the descendants of those slaves as second class citizens and terrorized black people, destroying whole communities and doing everything that they could to maintain superiority over people just because of the color of their skin.

That wasn't done by the government, that was done by the people who voted for and rationalized Jim Crow laws. That ignored and had dinner every night with KKK members while raising their children to embrace the generational racism of their "culture". The government wasn't who had lynching picnics where white people cut off trophies of black people they had hung while enjoying a Sunday afternoon. They weren't the ones riding down the roads at night an picking up black people at random to torture and harm them for what some random white person considered a slight. The government wasn't who was burning crosses on hillsides and in the lawns of black people to terrorize them. The government didn't blow up a church with 4 little girls in it decades ago and the government didn't kill 9 people in at point blank range in Charlsoton in 2015.

So again. Until you recognize ACTUAL history instead of what you want to believe, spare me your pathetic whining about racist traitors not getting their due.

Thank you. It is important to know what humans have experienced to understand how to change us all for the better.

@Jacar Yeah, that's some more horseshit.
Humans aren't going to change for the better.
If we were going to do that, it would have happened already.
I live in the South, I don't give a flying rat's ass how "sad" some
Southerners still feel about the war that their ancestors started.
They don't get any sympathy for their "losses".
Their losses are non-existent. Especially when compared to the losses
of those they enslaved.
Boo-fucking-hoo.

@Jacar "It is important to know what humans have experienced"

Maybe you should consider that concept from a non-white perspective. It's not the only one relevant in the dialog.

@KKGator
What we are experiencing today is the last remnants of Imperialism, expressing itself in the form of white privilege. Wherever, the world experienced colonization from Europe, white privilege came with it naturally.

We may have shed the European connection, but we still find ourselves plagued by a white demographic that feels its grip on society waning. As such, this demographic is paranoid over their loss of control. This is nowhere more evident than in the South and in the Bible Belt of this nation. Happens elsewhere in the nation of course, but it's an ingrained portion of the Southern culture, more so than elsewhere.

@t1nick I know why it has manifested itself. I'm just saying I'm not putting
up with it.
I hear it all the time down here, and I'm going to keep calling bullshit.
I understand it's origins. I'm going to keep telling these little whiners to
get over it.
I don't care who I piss off.

@KKGator
I know you are aware, but wasnt sure where to add in the thread so others could read and hear my opinion. We shared these sentiments on multiple previous posts.

@redbai Well, I agree with you 100% there. Not only is it not the only perspective relavent in this dialogue, it's not even nearly to most important perspective relavent in this dialogue.

@gNappyHead Israel: an invasion by racists supported by racists: all based upon the premise that the hallucinating Moses had his imaginary friends' blessing.

@Jacar & I definitely do not disagree with this either.

You are absolutely correct.

Yes the 1 percent took them to war. The majority were just ordinary people with no idea what was happening. Just like now. Don't ya think?

@Jacar No I do not. The people of the south knew exactly what they were fighting for, the right to own slaves. It's on every document and a major point in the confederate constitution. There was no ambiguity at all and to pretend that people who were facilitating the practice of slavery based on race were somehow not aware that it would have kept black people as slaves is ridiculous on it's face.

You're perpetuating a lie in order to make incredibly disgusting actions by people well aware of what they were doing and the repercussions of their actions seem benign. I have no interest in trying to pretend racism is some kind of normal character trait that should simply be dismissed as something as benign as scratching in public. The traitorous acts of the people of the south still facilitates racism and the perpetuation of white supremacy to this day.

@redbai The 1% knew what they were doing. Along with the foreigners aiding the south. The majority did not know any more than they had been told. Just like now.

@Jacar Yeah, they were told that they wouldn't be able to buy and sell black people anymore. That if they wanted to make "an honest day living" catching the slaves who were trying to run away from their "legal masters" they wouldn't be able to do it anymore. The entire slave industry, of which many of them belonged would no longer be a viable way of making money. So they went and killed people to have that right.

They knew that if black people would no longer be slaves, one day the only difference between them and a black person would be money. They would no longer be superior and maybe one day have the right to own someone.

What you haven't done in these pathetic attempts to sympathize with people of incredibly low moral character, is give a single argument that the "1%" used that was so convincing that it rallied people all over the south to fight and try to destroy a nation. What argument, that wasn't slavery, did the 1% use that was able to fool all these people into fighting a war? The obvious reason for that is that there is so much evidence to the contrary that any attempt would seem silly.

Not an apology in the sense that the north did something wrong. Just a reasoned understanding that current behavior is born of extremely deep wounds.

Other atrocities do not excuse any others.

@Jacar Bullshit. It's just YET another excuse to continue feeling victimized by those mean ol' Yankees.
Their "deep wounds" are of their own creation, because they WILL NOT LET IT GO.
Their current behavior is contrived and undeserved.
Your "reasoned understanding" is just another attempt at normalizing racism.
It was a war. Atrocities were committed by both sides.
The South is still mad because they fucking LOST.
Too damned bad.
No sympathy, no excuses, no more whining.
Which is ALL it is.

@KKGator You are obviously a truly wonderful human being. I am so very sad you are not my friend.

@Jacar I AM a truly wonderful human being. I'm fucking delightful.
You should be sad we aren't friends.
I'm a damned good friend to have.

Most people alive today in the US have not lived with the remnants of war in their own community,.

@Jacar Oh really whining pathetic thing for the lost cause.

Try living in Flint where the water is poison.

Try living on a reservation.

White southerners were NOT oppressed.

You are Trolling!

@Jacar Also, I read an article....just today...Today!

Tulsa is trying to locate the bodies of hundreds of African American Men women and CHILDREN who were brutally slaughtered in 1921. Most of them were burned alive.

Babies and toddlers Burned Alive while the white mob whooped and hollered.

But No. You see the descendants of that white mob as the biggest victims in the history of the US.

Give this nonsense up man or sell it on some right wing site.

We aren't going to buy it here.

[cnn.com]

Get over hundreds of thousands of relatives and neighbors and citizens being killed in a conflict that few understood. And obviously still do not today.

@Jacar no get over the fact that the south lost, only southeners that are in denial can't understand this fact, because it is a fact. Loss of life happened in both sides, and it is not true that "only few understood" unless you are talking about a few southeners. If they can't understand even today is denial, either go to see a shrink otherwise BOO HOO!

@Mofo1953 Your depth of empathy, and therefore ability to help any change, is striking.

@Jacar i have no empathy for stupidity.

Quite a leap. I'm not defending behavior. I am exploring the reasons for it.

@Jacar . The southern states had the same rights as the northern states. Anyone of them that claimed that they were fighting to preserve their way of life, and that they did not know what they were fighting for, were lying. The only difference at the time were the strong abolition movement in the north and in the federal government. There was a strong possibility that new laws would be passed to abolish slavery. The only difference between northern states and southern states were that the southern states did not want to give up the ownership of slaves. That is the only way of life that they wanted to preserve that was different than in the northern states. The union was against slavery and the confederacy wanted to keep them.

@noworry28 The constitution has three places wherein slavery was addressed. All were with the intent that slavery would be abolished within 20 years.
The war was about how the 1% in the south had not abided by the law.
Most people living in all the states had no real understanding of what was happening outside their neighborhood. The rich and powerful went to war. They south should have lost.
This does not negate the horrors that the masses experienced.

@Jacar. You can try all you want to justify or try to apply some patriotic duty to the confederacy. IT WAS ABOUT SLAVERY PERIOD. The poor who volunteered were afraid that if the slaves were freed they would be treated like equals and on the same level as them. They did not want blacks to be on the same level as them. IT WAS ABOUT SLAVERY PERIOD. The rich wanted a free labor force. IT WAS ABOUT SLAVERY PERIOD.

@noworry28 It was about economics. Slavery was a means to an income. Otherwise it would not exist.

\ Today more people, primarily women, are enslaved than ever before.

@Jacar . Still trying to justify it. Trying to rewrite history and romanticize the confederacy. You live in a state of denial. Good luck with that.

False equivalencies. And:::: I DID NOT call for an apology. Read again.

@Jacar "We do poorly to discount their need for apology. We reveal our lack of previous reflection in our exclamations of their lessness."

@273kelvin Really from you? Read the sentence THEIR need. Not MY endorsement. I am disappointed YOU reacted without thinking.

@Jacar My criticism was directed at "their" need. If you take that as directed at you well... but then again you posted it.

@273kelvin The way you quoted was as i interpreted.

These people are generations away from the experience. what we think is reasonable is seen by them as ignorance. And they are correct.

That is not so. It was a war of economics and clashing cultures. And most, 99 %, had no idea what they were fighting for.

@Jacar It looks to me like you are a victim of fake news. Here is an article you may want to read. It lists 5 reasons for the U.S. Civil War. Most have to do with slavery. [thefinertimes.com]

@BestWithoutGods Slavery was and is an economic issue. The underlying supports do not negate that. That those people believed bullshit does not alter the fact that they did not want to lose their income, and their way of life. Slavery was and is evil. (FYI: there are more actual slaves now than any time before.
And just as now there are many bedfellows that work for a mutual cause without endorsing all those who are involved. That is realty.
1% owned other humans. Just like now. Just like now. Tell me how all conservatives are evil? All lefties are stupid? There were many reasons for that war. Including participation of foreign powers. It was not simple.

@Jacar So we agree that the economic issue was tied to slavery. We agree that slavery is evil. On what continent is there still slavery? I do not claim that all conservatives are evil; some are merely deceived. There may be some stupid progressives, but most are smarter than conservatives. I agree that the Civil War was not simple, and that there were several causes. But slavery was one of the major causes, and I find it hard to believe that people in the 1860's were ignorant of that fact.

@Jacar Economics and clashing cultures? So THAT'S what it was about? Oh, and "state's rights," don't forget that one!
It was about S-L-A-V-E-R-Y, fool!

@Storm1752 Slavery was a element. NOT the primary issue.

@Jacar That is a lie.

The majority were basic people. The 1 percent were the evil ones. I am not defending behavior. I am attempting to understand it. No understanding. No solutions.

Please, learn nothing. Just gurgitate as you subconsciously respond before your brain has time to consider any actual thoughts.

Block me now. PLEASE!

@Jacar There was a solution. The south got their asses handed to them in an unjust war that destroyed their disgusting institution of slavery. It worked out just fine. If white bigots hadn't attempted to destroy things they didn't want to share equally with black people, all the "devastation" you claim wouldn't have occurred. If they had spent money on improving the environment and infrastructure instead of building obscene statues to traitors the situation would be drastically different.

But they didn't. They wallowed for generations in the disgusting racism of the ancestors doing everything they could to keep non-whites at a lower economic status than whites and have no one but themselves to blame for the condition of their lands.

They did not ALL embrace it. The 1 percent owned slaves. The rest were just like us.

@Jacar That is not true. As a native southerner who understands southern culture and history, I can say with certainty that most poor southerners who did not own slaves actually aspired to do so. One of my ancestors who actually did oppose slavery in St. Augustine was forced to flee to the North for his own safety.

@Jacar Please stop spewing your incessant bullshit.
None of what you are attempting to justify is remotely true.
Your "research" is faulty, at best, and downright LIES, in fact.
They ALL knew exactly what they were doing.
If they didn't, their ignorance does not earn them a pass.
Just stop now.
You've already exposed your agenda.

@KKGator . . Block me. . . I am equally tired of things that refuse to learn, but are motivated by their righteous ignorance to spew crap before their brains actually have time to engage their frontal lobes..

@Jacar You are spewing venom. Unacceptable!

@Jacar You don't bother me enough for me to block you. Your insults are pathetic, as are your positions on the subject.
Bye now!

Thank you, from another who attempts to understand real history.

That totally ignores that for generations after the war the south perpetuated lies and misinformation about non-white people, created monuments to traitors and lynched black people in the thousands, terrorizing generations of black people. It wasn't the one percent voting in juries to let KKK walk for terrorizing black people. It wasn't the one percent bombing churches. It wasn't the one percent segregating schools and red lining neighborhoods.

Spare me the pity for traitors.

@redbai Is it any different now? How is understanding another's pain an endorsement of their subsequent behavior?

@Jacar You haven't defined any "pain" except that white racists don't get to see the fruits of owning people spread out across the land allowing them to wallow in the greatness of slavery. Most descent people don't consider that pain.

The poor who fought for the Confederacy were often pressured into doing so, however, they also believed in the cause for which they were fighting, which was the enslavement of other human beings. Much like the uneducated poor Trump supporters of today, they fancied themselves "embarrassed millionaires" and had to convince themselves they were "better" than somebody. The only somebodies they could point to as more marginalized than themselves were slaves, and they definitely didn't want the enslaved to become the freed.

@Deb57 You started with a good sentence and then drowned in caveats.

The majority were basic people. The 1 percent were the evil ones.

@Jacar The other 99% went to slaughter people to support it.

And remember your beloved slave holder protectors drew first blood at Fort Sumter and earned every bit of wrath and pain that any traitors deserve.

@BufftonBeotch They were lied to. Just like now. And back then being killed for not marching was immediate.

@Jacar Oh please.....

@patchoullijulie No internet. No twiittee. Most were illiterate. Fake news everywhere. That was there reality.

I didn't write 'most.' Some do think their family suffered unjustly. Some did. How is attempting to understand their ideas endorsing stupidity?

Read again.

@Jacar I agree you didn't speak to the size of your faux victim group. However, your diatribe only spoke to one part of southern society. The omission of the graceful majority left your readers with a myopic and distorted perception of the region. One could likely suspect your motive here is just a hate bait post. Lastly, your arrogant suggestion for me to read this again is laughable. Based on our brief Interaction I highly doubt there is anything you can teach me. I will read any of your future posts that appeal to positivity. Otherwise we're done here....

Not understanding history is why the shit is repeated.

The CSA BREXITED from the USA. The USA then INVADED the CSA. (Just to be accurate).

After they declared war.

@Deb57The CSA agrarian bourgeoisie never declared war on the USA industrial/financial bourgeoisie. Neither did the Northern bourgeoisie officially declare war on them ( although, one could look at Lincoln's call for 75,000 volunteers to invade the South with, could be viewed as such). Rather, it can be looked upon as the final unraveling of the 'marriage of convenience' that had held the two nations together, since before the Revolution of 1775-1783. (One nation had been founded at Plymouth Plantation, in 1620. The other had been founded at Jamestown, in 1607).The 'errant bride' was brought back kicking and screaming, after a long, and bloody Un-Civil War.And the wage-slave masters of the North prevailed over the chattel-slave masters of the South, which has been an occupied country ever since (considering no majority of Southrons ever voted to 're-join' the 'Union'. So, your Wage-Slave
masters won! You can relax!

@davknight The Confederacy disregarded the outcome of an election they participated in, declared their intent to leave the union in order to protect slavery, seized US property, and opened fire on American troops in an act of aggression not defense.

No nation was formed at Plymouth or Jamestown. They were both established as English colonies. A nation was formed in Philadelphia in 1789 when the constitution was ratified by the thirteen states that would form the United States.

@JimGWhen you order trespassers off your land, and they don't leave, you have every right to open fire on them And the ultimate winner of the 1860 election wasn't even on the ballot in most Southern states. So, Southerners can hardly have been said to have had full "participation". And yes, not one, but TWO distinctly different NATIONALITIES of people emerged from the Colonial experience--the seed for the Southern Nation was planted at Jamestown. The seed for the rest of you was planted at Plymouth Rock. And your wage-slaveocrats won over the chattel slaveocrats in 1865. So why complain? Be happy!

The CSA government was just trash overall.

It's called migration.

@Jacar even the families who have only been in America for a few generations, none of which have ever so much as visited the South, let alone experienced generational repression of poverty.

@redthefiste People move, hence the spread of ideas/stories.

Yes. It was and is horrible.

Reads like an attempt to normalize racism to me.

@redbai Normalise.and justify!

@redbai That is a sad response. Should we all minimize everyone's pain thus? Hundreds of non-whites suffered. Their families still recount the loss. I will not discount ANYONE'S pain by referring to their differences.

The Earth is flat

@DZhukovin some if it is...

Most of them did not know anything about the war. The 1 percent owned slaves. Just like now. Time to do some research.

What in the hell does not believing in the supernatural have to do with attempting to understand human suffering?
Go to your safe space and wonder why you have not sense of empathy nor sympathy.

And then ban me so you don't have to be so morally challenged.

@Jacar They ALL knew enough of why the South was waging war. If any of them were ignorant of the why of it, that's on them, no one else.
Their suffering is irrelevant. It's also over.
Unless, of course, they are, like you, refusing to let it go.

@KKGator NO internet. NO phones. most completely illiterate. You need to learn more before you spew such shit.