@NoPlanetB
Thank you.

@Allamanda Agreed! And if our world views align on saving the planet then I am all for that.

I do not believe in a grand creator. But I do like his ability to talk about the connectivity of all life. As humans we believe we are somehow special and more important. In fact, we would not be able to survive without creatures like the dung beetle!

I respect the mosquito as another remarkably unique and bizarre life form. I wouldn't kill an eagle if it was flying by me. Mosquitos circle me at their peril. It mosquitos went extinct, I wouldn't shed as many tears as for the eagle. I'm biased toward Chordates I guess.

@racocn8 So true, one species pest is another species banquet!

Mmm they built churches on our stone circles and appropriated our festivals. A lot of old oral history is Gone in a lot of indigenous cultures.

@Allamanda
You make a claim, then you have to prove it.

@Allamanda I believe in allying with people who want to do good, but people and beliefs are not inseparable, even though too many people find it difficult to differentiate. As an example, Samaritans Purse is a charity that collects much needed school supplies and small gifts and distributes them to children in developing countries.

That's great, but the organization is the project of a homophobic, misogynistic, right wing religious-nut. I would gladly donate items to help those children, but those donations would also allow them to portray themselves in a good light and possibly gain them more significant financial support.

I'm not deluded enough to think my donation would make a damn bit of difference, but it's the principle of allying myself with something I find so reprehensible in every other way.

@NoPlanetB Thank you. I have my moments,

@Allamanda

No war here.

Spiritual is a nebulous term and there are other words which can be communicated to describe a feeling of connection.

When I read or hear "spiritual" I'm immediately lost regarding the content being comprehensive.. and lose interest in what's being said.

The pressure for anyone to stop feeling this way about it, is an additional argument.

I get what you mean... I posted in another thread somewhere about "spirituality" and how some don't take that as a literal meaning... They use it almost as a euphemism for Mother Nature. (If you will)

All living things do give off an aura. But it is electrical energy... Not a spirit. Look up Kirlian photography to see what I mean.

Native Americans look at things in a more religious manner but I would still rather think like a Native American than your average catholic.

@RiverRick

I wish people would say "mother nature." I know what that means and I'm all for it.

@RiverRick, @Allamanda

"The bigger or more grown up side"?

Hmm...

Let's just leave this conversation at that.

@Allamanda
That's precisely my point and position.

I don't know what people mean when they day they're spiritual or refer to spiritualism. It means different things to different people and, often, it refers to supernatural things.

My neighbour had a spiritual awakening lately. Some other guy is spiritual but not religious. He believes in a God. A client uses crystals and calls upon spiritual powers among us to heal herself, but does not believe in a god.. she does believe souls pass on.

This is a reasonable discussion. The word is flaky and I don't use it to describe what I mean because it doesn't have a clear meaning.

Reference to ego, or having to be bigger people or adults is condescending and exhibits one's need to have others see it their way.

I let people use their nebulous terminology... I just don't know what they mean when they use it. I ask what they mean, because it means nothing on its own, and then I ask why they use it, only in this context. If resistance is the response to my objection to its use, or meaning then the argument didn't start with me. It starts with the person who takes issue with people on a non religious website, who don't appreciate vague terminology that can be associated with religion..

Good questions, no?

@Allamanda there is little else when faced with a hostile local government and a world full of corruption and greed.

It is one thing to talk about but another to fight against others who can make you disappear if you start to become a thorn in their paw.

@Allamanda count me as a supporter, not as a leader.

I am just one of the multitudes.

But, is NOT one small part merely a part of the WHOLE?
No-one can merely build a fence around their little piece of ground and state " There, mine IS protected and safe from whatever happens to the rest of this planet, can they?
We, EVERY Human Being on this tiny little, insignificant chuck of rock hurtling around the Sun MUST work together FOR WE ARE ALL in the same boat and THERE IS NO rescue ship coming.

@moosepucky And IF the voices of the multitudes unite into ONE loud and mighty voice THEN they can truly move 'mountains,' and that is EXACTLY what WE need to do, is it not?

@Allamanda Yes.. puns are often unintentional.. that's what often makes them funny.

And no need to apologize.

Yes, when we die there is an end to our consciousness--our life as we know it. But, the energy and atoms that gave us form will continue on allowing other forms of life to exist.

I agree with the Native Americans in that we are all connected. I just do not share their belief in any kind of spirit, universal consciousness, or creator being.

I feel very connected to the earth, the universe--more than I ever did when I was a believer; but, it is because I understand that we are all literally connected-- made of "star-stuff," as stated by Carl Sagan.

@Joanne But then it’s not life anymore. It’s something else.

@Davekp . It might be life--just not my life. My energy can feed a plant that gets eaten by a deer etc. It is all in the circle of life.

@Allamanda Repeating a myth to promote a cause certainly is…

@Varn There is wisdom and lessons to be shared in myths. Primitive culture did not seek to make them literal, that would be religion. I would say religion is the step child. Spirituality exists without religion.

@Allamanda You’re groping

@SAMae Sure, endure myths, it’s easy to understand where they came from. But a mentality of, ‘if no one knows everything - we must accept anything’ is what I’m reading…

Regarding primitive culture, did they not truly believe the Appalachian mountains were carved by the dipping wings of a giant vulture? Or that a giant turtle carries the sun on it’s back under the earth ..to rise again in the east..?

Akin to, a pair of animals of every kind were kept on a boat for forty days & nights ..or a man lived inside a whale, or women were made from a man’s rib... Same stuff, different primitive culture, and far from both experience or reality.

@Allamanda Is the idea here that environmental efforts should be all inclusive? That everyone NEEDS to understand that we are all in the same environment, both part and parcel of that environment, that if you shit anywhere it is likely near anothers dinner table?

Absolutely, and in my mind his beliefs do not enter into that other than they motivate him (Which is good).

But what topic are we discussing, the enviroment and mans relation to it, or his spiritual beliefs? Simply because a persons spiritual beliefs lead them to a viewpoint, it is not a proof the leading belief is correct.
Are his beliefs being touted as an absolute proof of Grandfather, or are they being expressed soley as a way to support and endorse an inclusive view of humans as a part of nature?

The issue arises, whenever any of us says "we believe", that you are convinced of something and in religion, also convinced the other guy is full of beans, deluded or out of touch; LESS THAN by understanding, or birth circumstance or whatever the religion dictates. It creates division and encourages each to stick to their tribe, and espouses the superiority of OUR tribe to that other tribe which thinks differently.

You reminded me of a Pow Wow I was at years ago, wherein a Lakota woman had a beautiful leather fringe jacket, the entire backpanel of which was the Iconic Photo of Geronimo with rifle, all done with seed beads.
It had beaded into it the following phrase, "My heroes have always killed cowboys", like the Willie Nelson song . . .

I am all for believers who express human Empathy, Love, consideration of others beyond self, and enviromental concern ranks utmost among such concerns. A believers belief concerns me not at all, as long as it is not breaking my leg or picking my pocket, and need not even be discussed to work together.

Personally though, on the enviro front, we are thirty years too late . . .

@Allamanda I just joined the Environment and Ecology for our Future group. I look forward to participating.

@Allamanda NO ISSUE upstages climate shift. It affects all belief systems with equal ammounts of I don't give a fuck, have a wildfire, or flood, or wind event.

@Allamanda and what does that have to do with 95% of what you wrote? We all can contribute to the betterment of our world either personally or commonly, and in fact many of us do without the need of talking about gods, religions, spirits and all that assorted crap.

@Allamanda Deliberately or willingly misunderstood...if you follow my drift!

@Allamanda not sad for me and I understand your belief perfectly.

I appreciate your contribution, accuracy, and candid follow ups. You are correct, Sir

@Mofo1953 it’s not “her” belief. The quote is from Floyd Red Crow Westerman. I don’t mean to speak for @Allamanda, but I believe the point is to try to be more inclusive of other’s beliefs in order to better our environment and the Earth. Red Crow speaks of DNA and evolution, while incorporating his beliefs. Much like we incorporate our non-belief with the importance of connecting with and understanding our need for a healthy earth.

Rather than pointing fingers and saying since you believe in Sasquatch, I’m not going to listen to anything you have to say.

@Allamanda Best to avoid and ignore rather than engaging..imo.

@Marcie1974 You say, “but I believe the point is to try to be more inclusive of other’s beliefs in order to better our environment and the Earth.” Though you believe... those who don't also have valid reasons for preserving our planet.

Giving validity to superstition, if blended with a tad of science.. is giving validity to superstition … and compromising reality for a ‘common cause’ is still compromising reality..

I’ve protested, a lot, and have stood with many I had little in common with. It can be done Now, had participation in those protests been contingent on my belief in ‘bigfoot,’ their loss!

What I get from Allamanda’s piece ..and responses is a willingness to accept a lie in order to advance a common agenda. If speaking for those with a greater sense of integrity, no thanks ~

@Marcie1974 i don't care

@Varn so basically fuck the believers and you won’t work with them to try to improve the environment? Isn’t that being just as close minded as religious people?

@Mofo1953 so everyone should think the way you do or you don’t have time for them? Isn’t that what churches think?

@Marcie1974 ni I just don't care to waste more time on bs.

@Allamanda You say, “it's not a question of 'a lie' but of not wasting time trying to convince/convert others to 'our' truth...”

...and I thought I was the Purest I’ve no need to convince the ignorant or confused of reality in order to work or associate with them. I’m not so rigid I must pretend to ‘believe’ any of their myths in order to agree ..our nation doesn't need another massive pipeline, for example..

@Marcie1974 You say, “so basically fuck the believers and you won’t work with them to try to improve the environment?” ...you got a tag-team going here?

(then let me repeat) ...and I thought I was the Purest I’ve no need to convince the ignorant or confused of reality in order to work or associate with them. I’m not so rigid I must pretend to ‘believe’ any of their myths in order to agree ..our nation doesn't need another massive pipeline, for example..

@Allamanda There is a philosophy called negative utilitarianism which in a nutshell believes that the goal should be to minimize human suffering. It is widely rejected because if this is the goal then genocide is justified.

The most pragmatic course of action is not to preserve the earth, it Is to exploit it fully for our needs, thus maximizing the chances of a long cosmic future.

Preserving the earth shouldn't be a perogative until we have secured a place elsewhere.

@Allamanda The search is already done. We don't have to leave our own solar system. Why assume that our future is biological, or bound to planets? I don't think there is any future in either of these concepts. At some point, the only two things you need to further conscious existence is mass and energy. There is nothing in known physics preventing you from sentience from inorganic matter.

@Allamanda I don't know how that is solipsistic, but it's all possible, and right now humanity is in the home stretch. The only difference is that my definition of humanity extends beyond biology, and there is no need for a soul.